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tyler.slamkowski Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2017 Posts: 104 Location: Muskegon, MI
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:15 pm Post subject: Most Nimble Horn |
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What, in your opinion, is the most nimble (or agile) horn you have ever played? Nimble defined by the following:
-Fastest, most consistent valves
-Flexible
-Crisp articulation
Secondarily, is it good for all genres, or is more oriented to a particular style (mariachi, classical, jazz, symphonic, etc.)?
Last edited by tyler.slamkowski on Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:54 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Anything else, LOL? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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tyler.slamkowski Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2017 Posts: 104 Location: Muskegon, MI
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Anything else, LOL? |
I think I was pretty specific. Feel free to share your opinions on the question if you would like. |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 627 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Of the horns I personally own, the Kanstul 991. Much more agile than my Bach, the valves are incredibly fast, and its Connstellation bore (.438") makes it extremely efficient and easy to make leaps and bounds that would have my sweating on my Strad. It's also very mouthpiece sensitive and can change from laser beam bright to flugelhorn diffused depending on mouthpiece and depth of cup. Not dissimilar from Trent Austin's old videos showing the demonstration of the Conn 10A, which is basically the Kanstul's spiritual grandfather.
On the downside, its D-E flat-E partial at the top of the staff is quite flat. Alternate fingerings flat. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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You said horn, opening up a vote for cornet. But still, I'm guessing you are asking about a trumpet. If you will consider a cornet, I might have a few recommendations. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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markp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 2814 Location: Coarsegold, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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When I think of agile, it’s about being able to get all around on the horn with the least effort, allowing you to concentrate on the music rather than the horn.
I think horns with a step bore are more agile, at least for me. Flugelhorns are even more so. |
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Yamahaguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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I like to use the word 'responsive' in regards to what I need a horn to do...
but think that relates to your definition and criteria just the same.
Top 3 in my rotation most recently:
'48 Olds Super
'79 Calicchio
'20 DelQuadro
I choose the horn based on the work and the sound I need...but all are evenly
responsive for the job I ask it to do. |
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peanuts56 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2021 Posts: 230
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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I have an older Yamaha Bobby Shew model that has an expanding bore the entire length. I also have an Olds Recording model that I bought in 73.
The Shew model is definitely easier to get around on and is easier in the upper register. I top out on a G or A flat over high C on both. I don't work nearly as hard on the Yamaha. I use the same mouthpiece on both, a Yamaha 14B4. It came with the horn and is comfortable. I've tried a few shallower mouthpieces and was never comfortable. |
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jeirvine Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2022 Posts: 337 Location: Baltimore, MD USA
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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For me it is probably my 1978 Trek 930. It's columbus steel, and has similar geometry to other 70's stage-racing bikes, but it just wants to go, and disappears under you. One of those things that's hard to quantify.
Oh wait - trumpet forum. In that case, my '49 Olds Special; same qualities. Just a "let's go" response across the whole range. You never feel like you're fighting it. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
1996 Bach 37 |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1830 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Trumpets that come to mind
Getzen Eterna (include the .458 tuning slide) - most things with the right mouthpiece
Schilke B6
King Golden Flair (the one made in the late 70's)
I liked both of the above for small pit orchestras where an intensity of sound was needed at a moderate volume. |
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JonathanM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2018 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Great question!
I had this same thought about a year ago, when I was doing some practice. It was really fast arpeggios and I was using a timer to push myself. I thought my Benge 4x, which seemed very nimble to me (light, easy to play) would be the most nimble horn in my arsenal... So, I'm doing the timed excercise with the Benge, then I think of my Schilke B6, so I pick it up and do the same excercise. Both were easy, so I increased the tempo. I kept increasing the tempo until my Benge, to my shock, was left in the dust by Schilke's B6. I kept increasing the tempo, faster and faster... No horn in my arsenal came close to the B6 - and I tried several.
It's been mentioned above, and I agree, step-bore horns definitely have my nod towards what I consider nimble, and when you add in a Medium bore, like the B6, in a step-bore model, well, a horn like the B6 is very hard to beat. The B6 is similar, in some ways, to Yamaha's 8310, the Z horn; that's pretty efficient and nimble as well.
I think one of the last questions you had revolved around the use of the horn; is the B6 a 'do it all' horn? That's a lot of ground to cover, because I think it's mostly used for a commercial sound or genre. However, with the right mouthpiece I think the ability of many horns can be enlarged for different uses. And I'm a huge believer in various metals and styles of tuning slides... A copper tuning slide would darken the B6 considerably, I think, and I'm sure MK could draw something like that up rather easily. Really, many horns, with the proper mouthpiece and tuning slide, can be stretched to fit many different requirements.
But, and I think Andy Cooper has beat me to it, I agree; the B6 would be a difficult horn to beat in the agility arena. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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My Benge 3x is the most responsive and agile horn I have, or have played for any length of time. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Schilke B1 and it is nimble almost to a fault. You need to drive it - you can't just come close and let the horn find it for you. You need to be in the driver's seat for sure. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Then why don't we all play a Schilke B6?
Seems like a bit of a smart aleck question, but I mean it. What do other horns have that the Schilke doesn't have?
Jonathan, you say the Schilke is very close to the Yamaha Shew. I could never get comfortable with the Shew's sound. How's the comparison?
Same sort of question regarding your Benge. Intonation aside, how did the Benge/Schilke sounds compare?
Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 652
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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The Conn Connstellation 36B (and its twin the 8B) fit your description better than almost any other trumpet. These horns are lightweight, have short-stroke pistons, a medium bore, and have great intonation. The 36B is definitely oriented towards jazz and commercial music, and has a very bright and edgy sound, but can mellow out when you need it to. I would also add that playing a smaller mouthpiece (and properly acclimating to it) will do more for your trumpet-playing agility than a new horn. Take Allen Vizzutti for example: he uses a mouthpiece that is roughly a 3E, much more shallow than any classical player would dare to use, and is able to play incredibly virtuosic passages with ease. |
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JonathanM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2018 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Kehaulani, the B6, like Yamaha's 8310Z, is simply not a workable horn for a lot of players. For that matter, step-bore horns probably aren't either. I've got a friend that is quite a good player, but he couldn't work with either of the above horns; they play 'tight' to many people, but for those who can use Medium Bore or tighter step bore horns, the efficiency, or in this instance nimbleness, is phenomenal. And, to a degree at least, I think tone can be colored to meet other needs through mouthpiece and tuning slide options.
Personally, I had a B1 that I also really liked, but as it was a larger bore horn, I couldn't get it to work as nimble for me as the B6.
My ears aren't as keen as they used to be, and I hate to say it but my ears have never been as keen as some top trumpeters, but the Z horn might have been a slightly fuller sound, and the B6 a bit more cutting... But that's to my ears; I'm sure others could argue otherwise with their B6's or Z horns.
On to my Benge... I think my Benge, which I've always thought was light and superbly efficient until I tried it against my B6, seemed to have a less compact sound, but to me a larger fuller sound. For top end range though, I've hit a few double high-C's with my Benge; not fit for recording, but the B6 cut me off around F above high C - and again, that's why the B6 isn't for everyone; it really requires efficiency to utilize it fully. In the lower register the B6 was phenomenally efficient for me, but I couldn't maximize it in my upper range. And there, in the upper range, my Z horn was more open than my B6. Not as open as my Benge though. For that reason, I don't have the Z or the B6 any longer; I still have my Benge. I liked them both, the B6 and Z horn, and admired each for their specific strengths, but I've found better total fit with other horns. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you very much, Jonathan. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Difficult question because we are all different and feel things differently. I would vote for my Schmidt rotary, fast valves, excellent intonation, quick response, easy to articulate. For me, and I just really learned this over the last three years, agility has a lot to do with mouthpiece choice. Pair my trumpets with an AR and there you go. Pair them with, e.g., a Lotus or Monette, and other qualities like power and focus will prevail over the nimble side.
Moreover, I’d definitely agree on the B6. It’s high up on my „want“ list and has been for years - just can’t justify yet another great horn. Another one in the nimble department that comes to mind is the X-13, but see what I just said about the B6
Edit: @JonathanM, I absolutely agree with your assessment of the B6 vs. the Shew horn. The Shew (talking the 8310Z here) seemed much warmer (and a little less open) to me than the much more brilliant sounding B6. I clearly preferred the B6 for sound and playability. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1925 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | King Golden Flair (the one made in the late 70's) |
Yes! _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2041 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:06 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | -Fastest, most consistent valves
-Flexible
-Crisp articulation |
As I look over your criteria, I think that mouthpiece choice and mouthpiece receiver gap will matter more -- perhaps MUCH more -- than which model trumpet.
That said, the Getzen Canadian Brass CB10 and Shires AF come to mind as being particularly nimble. Both also have excellent valves. |
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