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"All-rounders" Pro Trumpets


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invisiblehand
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:39 am    Post subject: "All-rounders" Pro Trumpets Reply with quote

Howdy,

I'm a returning player who has been taking lessons for the past few years and am at the point where I'm interested in a horn upgrade. (My son has Bach Strad 37 and the valves, sound, and "ease of play" are all better) My instructor and a few other knowledgable folks all suggest that at my development I should go with an all-rounder or something that could be used in a lot of environments.

Normally I shop for used horns. But locally, after looking at some local electronic boards, the used market is by wild amounts Bach Strad 37s. My limited experience suggests actually playing the horn is pretty informative over specs and such. So I finally bit the bullet at the local shop and tried a new Yamaha Xeno (ML bore regular tuning slide). I decided that it was meaningfully better than any Bach 37 or 43 that I've tried to date. (Note I had already determined that I liked the 43 more than 37.) Given the state of the local used market, this suggests that I would get a new horn for roughly $3k. But also means that in addition to a Yamaha, there are other alternatives that I could reasonably find.

My question ... for a busy person who has a job and teenagers, but can find some time here and there, what is a short list of horns in the market today that I should try? Any related thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

Thanks!
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: "All-rounders" Pro Trumpets Reply with quote

invisiblehand wrote:
My limited experience suggests actually playing the horn is pretty informative over specs and such....

My question ... for a busy person who has a job and teenagers, but can find some time here and there, what is a short list of horns in the market today that I should try? Any related thoughts or suggestions are welcome.


For all-around trumpets, which you can try-before-you-buy, and that are around your $3k budget, I'd look at Bach Strad, Yamaha Xeno, Schilke B or S series, and Getzen Eterna Deluxe or Custom, among others.

Have you checked out Chuck Levin's in Silver Spring? They should be pretty close to you, and have just about the largest inventory of any store anywhere. Another option is Baltimore Brass in Catonsville, which is a great store that also has a pretty good inventory (albeit smaller than Chuck's).

Mike
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Last edited by TrumpetMD on Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

New? Getzen Eterna Classic.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting a different horn might be the answer - and there are lots of options that will be mentioned and suggested !

But first it might be worthwhile to have your current horn examined for minor adjustments that are degrading its playing. Water key corks, big dents, etc.

I'd start with a thorough cleaning - but you've probably already done that.

Next would be 'valve alignment' - there are probably various old felt pads that have changed size over the years, and that would affect the alignment.

My first test is to carefully play each valve combination and listen to the 'sound quality' (not pitch accuracy, but the tone of the sound) - all the combinations should sound similar. If some combinations are 'way different' then there might be valve alignment issues.

Do careful playing and listening while moving a valve very slightly - to see if the tone is affected. Up-stroke can be increased by slightly loosening the top valve cap. Down-stroke can be increased by slightly un-screwing the valve button.

Getting 'best alignment' can be complicated compromises that give good results in all the combinations. Gross errors of alignment can be seen by pulling the valve slides and looking.
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invisiblehand
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: "All-rounders" Pro Trumpets Reply with quote

TrumpetMD wrote:
Have you checked out Chuck Levin's in Silver Spring? They should be pretty close to you, and have just about the largest inventory of any store anywhere. Another option is Baltimore Brass in Catonsville, which is a great store that also has a pretty good inventory (albeit smaller than Chuck's).


Thanks Mike.

I did notice their huge stock online which is what made me think that I should cut down the list before heading over there. (I'll probably have a two-to-three hour window some weekend)

I've been to the Baltimore Brass Company which is where I tried new Bachs and a used 43. I initially set up the appointment because my schedule opened up and they also have a big stock of used horns. But they essentially said that their used horns were more specialized.

kehaulani wrote:
New? Getzen Eterna Classic.


Thank you!

To both of you, the archives suggest that the 907 is the all-rounder versus the 900. You two agree?
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invisiblehand
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
I'd start with a thorough cleaning - but you've probably already done that.

Next would be 'valve alignment' - there are probably various old felt pads that have changed size over the years, and that would affect the alignment.


I did in response to some sticky slides. They replaced the valve pads, spit valve corks, and such too.

JayKosta wrote:
My first test is to carefully play each valve combination and listen to the 'sound quality' (not pitch accuracy, but the tone of the sound) - all the combinations should sound similar. If some combinations are 'way different' then there might be valve alignment issues.

Do careful playing and listening while moving a valve very slightly - to see if the tone is affected. Up-stroke can be increased by slightly loosening the top valve cap. Down-stroke can be increased by slightly un-screwing the valve button.

Getting 'best alignment' can be complicated compromises that give good results in all the combinations. Gross errors of alignment can be seen by pulling the valve slides and looking.


Interesting. I'm largely cramming for a concert next week. But I'll give this a spin. Nothing is cheaper than making the present horn work better.
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patdublc
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given that you live in DC, I'll second everything that TrumpetMD/Mike said. If you're willing to look elsewhere, Landress Brass in NY, Austin Custom Brass in KC, or Dillon's Music in NJ are all worth the effort. Of course, there are many other places but I'm just trying to avoid listing 35 places to visit.
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invisiblehand
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patdublc wrote:
Given that you live in DC, I'll second everything that TrumpetMD/Mike said. If you're willing to look elsewhere, Landress Brass in NY, Austin Custom Brass in KC, or Dillon's Music in NJ are all worth the effort. Of course, there are many other places but I'm just trying to avoid listing 35 places to visit.


I've noticed those shops online since they seem to carry used horns as well. I haven't been up to NYC or Jersey in years. Probably not going to happen anytime soon. Is there a worthwhile shop in San Francisco-Berkely area? I have family that that we visit on occasion.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: "All-rounders" Pro Trumpets Reply with quote

[quote="invisiblehand"]
TrumpetMD wrote:
To both of you, the archives suggest that the 907 is the all-rounder versus the 900. You two agree?


I think for the way you want to use it, the Getzen 900's fine. I wouldn't use it in a semi-to professional orchestra (and I suspect neither would you), but for normal playing, I think it fits right in. I used it professionally in Concert Band, Jazz Band, pop combos and legit brass ensembles.

I can't speak to the other, have played only the Severinson/900 and Capri which, BTW, I think will do what you want it to, at a lesser price.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your present Yamaha is a pro line trumpet - just old.

What do you dislike about it?

It would help to know in order to give a better recommendation.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: "All-rounders" Pro Trumpets Reply with quote

TrumpetMD wrote:
...Have you checked out Chuck Levin's in Silver Spring? They should be pretty close to you, and have just about the largest inventory of any store anywhere. ...Mike


Lee Walkowich is an extremely knowledgeable sales person at Chuck Levin's Washington Music and a good player as well. I would head over to this store when Lee is working and have him make some recommendations for you. He has a HUGE selection of all of the popular models as well as some pretty esoteric horns from foreign lands near and far.

I've even asked him to play a horn at me from across the sales floor so I could get a sense of what the horn actually sounds like from that end of the bell.

If I were looking for used, I'd head over to Dillon Music in New Jersey. They have a long wall of used horns several rows high. Some of their sales people are rather accomplished trumpet players, too. I'd get their recommendations, as well.

Happy Hunting!
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invisiblehand
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
Your present Yamaha is a pro line trumpet - just old.

What do you dislike about it?

It would help to know in order to give a better recommendation.


That I know. It turns out that my old band teacher ... we're talking about the 80s here ... mentioned that Schilke worked with Yamaha to improve their brass instruments. So when this came up on Craigslist way back when returning to trumpet, I realized that it is a Schilke clone of sorts. (Just based on appearances) Looking online made me think that it would be a decent horn ... or at the very least, noticeably better than I was as a player at that point.

When I play my son's trumpet ancient Bach Strad, the valves and slides work noticeably better. I've had my old horn cleaned and a tech look at it. I have also tested a few valve/slide oils to get better performance. It definitely got better but definitely slower/stickier than the better maintained Bach. (This was owned by an excellent player in the DC area. I got the sense he tried a ton of these Strads until he found the one he liked) His horn sounded different than mine. His is darker and fuller sound. Not sure it's universally "better" but in most circumstances I would like it more.

That got me to looking around a few months ago. In short, I found that the Bach Strads and limited number of Yamahas (I know someone with an older Xeno which I liked but the Gen 2 horn in the store was definitely nicer. At the moment, I think the Gen 2 horn is the best match ... albeit quite a bit more expensive. Which gets me to this thread. If I'm potentially willing to pull the trigger on a 3k Gen 2 Xeno instead of waiting for a used one to appear, it would be prudent to try out other horns in the area.) all had better valves and slides. With the caveat that I only played the Yamahas for about 15-20 minutes, all slotted better. Since I'm still relatively new at this, what I mean is that I find the center of notes easier as a I jump around my range. I couldn't play any higher but because finding the notes was easier, it made it easier to play and gave me more mental energy to focus on musicality.

I've been taking lessons since 2018 and enjoy it. Now I play with the community orchestra but looking forward to broadening my horizons as I continue to improve. So despite my age, I don't consider myself particularly experienced. I'm still at the point where I'm discovering a lot about myself and the instrument. So when I sit down with another trumpet, it's usually a wild experience. It takes me a while playing through a few things to think about what I like or dislike. I simply haven't played that many nice horns.

I'm probably babbling on ... so I'll stop here. Thanks for reading.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve come to a point in my playing where I say to myself I really only need one horn and could’ve probably done so all my trumpet life. Yet I keep buying, trying, and selling horns one at a time - one in, one out It’s part of the fun and when buying used and buying solid quality you can’t really go wrong as long as the instrument is technically sound, but you know that.

What I’m trying to say: check out new horns but when you do that, but also take your 734 with you and show it to the folks in the store. It may need a further adjustment/cleaning/felts/maybe dent removal in the valve section/…

Also, don’t limit yourself to wanting a GenX Yamaha, check out other horns, while you’re at it. And yes, I know my post is probably not terribly useful, but it’s not even 6 am and I have been awake for a while
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will say, that the new, current generation Yamaha Xeno is a nice, nice playing horn.

I've played some of the earlier ones. They were fine, but I never was tempted to buy one or think that it was better than my old 6335. I haven't played my 6335 for quite a while, I've been playing a Benge 3X, but similarly, I don't often run across horns that I think play better. However, there is a short list.

I played a Shires CLW back over a decade ago when ITG was in Minneapolis. This was before Eastman bought Shires and everything was definitely built in-house in Massachusetts (not that it isn't now, but it's less clear). The BLW was also quite good, but the CLW was a winner. They have more models, now, but I haven't played them.

I worked music retail for a few years and we got a new generation Yamaha Xeno in. I tested it, because we always play test the new horns that come in. It was a winner. Great response, nice blow, not stiff, nice sound. One of the few horns that might play better than my Benge, maybe. It wasn't a long test, but I gave it a workout and it passed with flying colors.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does sound like you would benefit from a heavier "Bachish" style trumpet.

A new instrument can also give you a little psychological boost to practice more.

Having said that, you might want to do a couple of experiments with your present trumpet.

1. For slotting, do the Reeves Brass Paper Trick

https://bobreeves.com/blog/tag/gap/

If this makes a postitive difference you can resolve the problem by ordering a mouthpiece or backbore that will give your more "gap" or have a mouthpiece converted to "Reeves Sleeves". There are also different backbore choices that can help in slotting.

2. Buy a bottle of Denis Wick valve oil with PTFE
First clean your valves and valve casings with Simple Green, then rubbing alcohol to get rid of any of your present oil.
Some older Yamaha trumpets used "Yamalloy" instead of monel for their valves. This alloy reacted poorly with the body chemistry of some players.

I think you have already found a good horn for you in the Xeno. If a store in your area stocks them, you might also check the "Jupiter" XO 1602. Oh, maybe the Getzen 3050 too.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over the years I have played quality professional-level horns I liked from Adams, Bach, Benge, Besson, Blessing, Conn, Edwards, Getzen, Harrelson, Kanstul, Ken Larson, Roy Lawler, Fred Powell, Schilke, Shires, Sonare, Stomvi, Van Laar, Yamaha and Warburton.

Some I liked more than others, of course, but every one of those manufacturers made at least one model -- often more than one -- that would have met my playing needs for the foreseeable future.

The Bach 18037 and Yamaha 8335 are great starting points for your search as those two models are likely the most popular professional models in the world. They have a lot in common, but as you have noticed, some differences.

Try as many horns as you can get your hands on. If you like the Yamaha 8335, try the excellent 9335NY model...or try a very different but equally excellent set up in the 8335LAII.

Some models are fairly similar to the Bach 18037 and the Yamaha 8335, such as the Shires Q10 and Shires A models and the Getzen 3050, perhaps the 907 as well. Also, you might consider a Bach 19037 (or 19043) if you have only tried the 180.

Other models represent different designs that you might like better: Schilke B1 or B5, Getzen 3051 or 900DLX, Edwards X13, Shires CVLA....

So many nice horns out there. Good luck!
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invisiblehand
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: "All-rounders" Pro Trumpets Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:
Lee Walkowich is an extremely knowledgeable sales person at Chuck Levin's Washington Music and a good player as well. I would head over to this store when Lee is working and have him make some recommendations for you. He has a HUGE selection of all of the popular models as well as some pretty esoteric horns from foreign lands near and far.

I've even asked him to play a horn at me from across the sales floor so I could get a sense of what the horn actually sounds like from that end of the bell.

If I were looking for used, I'd head over to Dillon Music in New Jersey. They have a long wall of used horns several rows high. Some of their sales people are rather accomplished trumpet players, too. I'd get their recommendations, as well.

Happy Hunting!


Thanks! I think Dillons is roughly three and a half hours each way. Despite my penchant for used durable things, that's probably a hill too steep for me.

But having a name of someone experienced at Chuck Levin's is helpful. It makes it more purposeful when setting up an appointment.
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invisiblehand
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: "All-rounders" Pro Trumpets Reply with quote

[quote="kehaulani"]
invisiblehand wrote:
TrumpetMD wrote:
To both of you, the archives suggest that the 907 is the all-rounder versus the 900. You two agree?


I think for the way you want to use it, the Getzen 900's fine. I wouldn't use it in a semi-to professional orchestra (and I suspect neither would you), but for normal playing, I think it fits right in. I used it professionally in Concert Band, Jazz Band, pop combos and legit brass ensembles.

I can't speak to the other, have played only the Severinson/900 and Capri which, BTW, I think will do what you want it to, at a lesser price.


Thank you!
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invisiblehand
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
I’ve come to a point in my playing where I say to myself I really only need one horn and could’ve probably done so all my trumpet life. Yet I keep buying, trying, and selling horns one at a time - one in, one out It’s part of the fun and when buying used and buying solid quality you can’t really go wrong as long as the instrument is technically sound, but you know that.

What I’m trying to say: check out new horns but when you do that, but also take your 734 with you and show it to the folks in the store. It may need a further adjustment/cleaning/felts/maybe dent removal in the valve section/…


Crazy Finn wrote:
I will say, that the new, current generation Yamaha Xeno is a nice, nice playing horn.

I've played some of the earlier ones. They were fine, but I never was tempted to buy one or think that it was better than my old 6335. I haven't played my 6335 for quite a while, I've been playing a Benge 3X, but similarly, I don't often run across horns that I think play better. However, there is a short list.

I played a Shires CLW back over a decade ago when ITG was in Minneapolis. This was before Eastman bought Shires and everything was definitely built in-house in Massachusetts (not that it isn't now, but it's less clear). The BLW was also quite good, but the CLW was a winner. They have more models, now, but I haven't played them.

I worked music retail for a few years and we got a new generation Yamaha Xeno in. I tested it, because we always play test the new horns that come in. It was a winner. Great response, nice blow, not stiff, nice sound. One of the few horns that might play better than my Benge, maybe. It wasn't a long test, but I gave it a workout and it passed with flying colors.


Dayton wrote:
Some I liked more than others, of course, but every one of those manufacturers made at least one model -- often more than one -- that would have met my playing needs for the foreseeable future.

The Bach 18037 and Yamaha 8335 are great starting points for your search as those two models are likely the most popular professional models in the world. They have a lot in common, but as you have noticed, some differences.

Try as many horns as you can get your hands on. If you like the Yamaha 8335, try the excellent 9335NY model...or try a very different but equally excellent set up in the 8335LAII.

Some models are fairly similar to the Bach 18037 and the Yamaha 8335, such as the Shires Q10 and Shires A models and the Getzen 3050, perhaps the 907 as well. Also, you might consider a Bach 19037 (or 19043) if you have only tried the 180.

Other models represent different designs that you might like better: Schilke B1 or B5, Getzen 3051 or 900DLX, Edwards X13, Shires CVLA....

So many nice horns out there. Good luck!


I did take my horn to the Baltimore Brass Company. They were generous enough to let me sit there with a Bach Artisan, Bach 37 (not sure whether it was a 180 or 190 but it was brand new), Bach "Light" 43, and my Yamaha.

FWIW, I was unable to meaningfully tell the difference between the Artisan and the 37. I gather from archives that this says more about me as a player than the horn: it seems that folks think that the Artisan is a noticeable step up. The horn I liked most was the Bach "light" 43. Sound-wise, it was in between my horn and the 37.

But the point that I should bring my horn for comparisons in a broad sense is an excellent one. It just occurred to me that if the timing is right, I could also bring my son's Bach 37.

From what you've listed here, what I see at Chuck Levin's, and the comments as a whole, it looks like there is a pretty good selection and I should go with an open mind.
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lakejw
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My recommendation to come-back players looking for a horn upgrade: get the horn that excites you and makes you want to play trumpet more. Of course you could get by with the horn you have, but there's more to it than just getting by.

I like to take pictures...I have several cameras and lenses that probably (definitely) are overkill for the use case, but it serves the purpose of furthering the hobby and bringing some enjoyment to the experience. And I'm that much more likely to spend an afternoon walking around being creative, instead of scrolling on my phone at home. Hobbies are meant to be enjoyed!

Re: Bach-ish horns, in addition to the many excellent recommendations here, I would recommend trying the XO Brass 1602. Wonderful balance of flexibility and projection, great sound, and very versatile. You can also add weight if desired with the included heavy bottom caps.

Lots of people are really enjoying the Yamaha LA model these days, as well.
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