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Knowing / Blowing / Paralysis / Analysis - LEARNING


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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug Elliott wrote:
The one good thing that has come out of all this ridiculousness is that I've given a bunch of great Skype lessons to lurkers who are actually interested in learning and improving their playing instead of arguing about it.


Glad I could help! I'll do the work so others don't have to. All the best.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When a member here starts calling another member "ignorant," it is a good indication that a conversation has shifted from in-depth explanations to personal attacks.

If you want to keep posting on TH, it is best to get a grip on your emotions and tone it down.

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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moderators wrote:
When a member here starts calling another member "ignorant," it is a good indication that a conversation has shifted from in-depth explanations to personal attacks.

If you want to keep posting on TH, it is best to get a grip on your emotions and tone it down.

moderators


I appreciate it! <3 I also went and toned down my "reading comprehension" language to be much more productive so I'm not escalating the spiraling situation. I have repeatedly told him to contact me directly instead of propagating the argument. Thanks again.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologize to everyone for allowing my frustration to turn a healthy debate towards an argument. I will try to moderate my tone, but I think it's fair to talk straight.

There is a culture of ignorance in brass pedagogy regarding embouchure technique and we are all victims.

The predominant approach has been advocated by a number of people in this topic. This school of thought claims that brass musicians should rarely, if ever, think about what their embouchures are doing. Discussions of how to play are generally reserved as a last resort. Instead, they want students to address embouchure technique unconsciously as much as they can.

There are a number of problems I have with this strategy. First, advocates never demonstrate that they understand what good embouchure technique is in the first place. Some of them actually revel in their ignorance. They are not going to be good resources for how to teach embouchure technique because they don't understand what that is in the first place.

Secondly, it can't be effective for everyone. Students who are successful with this teaching are lucky that they figured out what they needed to do. That usually happens unconsciously, but when habits are formed unconsciously they a prone to inconsistencies. Many other students that get this sort of teaching have their problems covered up, but never truly fixed. And many of us who have posted in this thread have commented on our similar experiences being failed by teachers who insisted on instructing this way.

It is a very subjective way to teach. Since we are all prone to confirmation bias these teachers can fool themselves into thinking they are fixing embouchure problems because they don't have an objective tool to assess what's going on. None of the advocates for the traditional approach posting here was able to spot the cause and effect of the embouchure characteristics in the videos I posted. If you don't know what's wrong, anything you do to address the problem is trial and error.

And it's a self-perpetuating culture. Brass teachers who discourage embouchure analysis and keep their students' attentions off the embouchure end up not preparing those students to become better teachers down the road. Then those teachers continue to teach the same way and so on.

Ignorance just means a lack of knowledge or awareness. We all have some areas where we are ignorant. Calling out ignorance can be considered rude, but acknowledging our shortcomings is the first step in correcting them.

Dave
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A post of yours where I 100% agree with every word.

That seems like a good place to end. Thanks for the debate!
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpet playing is 90% mental, 9% air, and 1% everything
else.

If you want to know more, ask your questions in the Bill Adam forum. We will be happy to help.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Trumpet playing is 90% mental, 9% air, and 1% everything
else.



Not in my experience. Maybe it's just me though.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not in my experience. Maybe it's just me though.


It's not just you.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: Knowing / Blowing / Paralysis / Analysis - LEARNING Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Mike Sailors wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Trumpet playing is 90% mental, 9% air, and 1% everything else.


Not in my experience. Maybe it's just me though.


It's not just you.


Just throwing the OP's original question here.

JayKosta wrote:
What have you found to be effective for your own learning, and what seems to help students with their learning?
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bg
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Knowing / Blowing / Paralysis / Analysis - LEARNING Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:


Just throwing the OP's original question here.

JayKosta wrote:
What have you found to be effective for your own learning, and what seems to help students with their learning?



"The best tool we have is what we know." - Bill Adam
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Knowing / Blowing / Paralysis / Analysis - LEARNING Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
What have you found to be effective for your own learning, and what seems to help students with their learning?


Having the student (and myself) unlearn the "suck and blow" method that has pervaded trumpet pedagogy for the last 70-80 years.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:39 am    Post subject: Re: Knowing / Blowing / Paralysis / Analysis - LEARNING Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
What have you found to be effective for your own learning, and what seems to help students with their learning?


Having the student (and myself) unlearn the "suck and blow" method that has pervaded trumpet pedagogy for the last 70-80 years.


OP: i was curious what Mike Sailors thoughts on breathing were so I found this post of his from 2018 where he talks about his experience with instructing breathing https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1537779&highlight=#1537779

Pg. 2

He also links the brass chat with Jim Pandolfi.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Trumpet playing is 90% mental, 9% air, and 1% everything
else.


That may be how you like to *think* about brass playing. It might even be how you prefer to teach it. But those numbers are made up and I don't find them very helpful. Everyone is going to have to address different things, and at different times in their development.

If you want to learn about brass embouchure technique and how to best teach it I recommend you investigate some pedagogy that addresses it by looking objectively at functioning embouchures and what needs to happen for efficient brass playing. Methods that encourage developing embouchure technique by addressing other areas (mental imagery or breathing) are not your best resources here.

Remember the culture of ignorance. Don't let historical precedence select how you teach and learn, use accurate information guide you.

Dave
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Wondra
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Trumpet playing is 90% mental, 9% air, and 1% everything
else.

If you want to know more, ask your questions in the Bill Adam forum. We will be happy to help.


Well...that quote is directly from William Adam. I'd say he knew what he was doing in terms of brass pedagogy...
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wondra wrote:
Well...that quote is directly from William Adam. I'd say he knew what he was doing in terms of brass pedagogy...


Admittedly I'm not as familiar with Adam's pedagogy as I am, say, Arnold Jacobs. However, if I were to trust what Adam's suggested for teaching embouchure technique I would want to read up on his objective descriptions of what efficient and inefficient brass embouchure mechanics actually are. To my knowledge, he never did. If I'm wrong, please help me find it. Remember the culture of ignorance. In Adam's day it was typical to ignore empirical descriptions of a functioning embouchure and instead teach through mental imagery and breathing.

Not every teacher is going to have the best information on every single aspect of brass pedagogy. This is why I feel the dedicated forums perhaps do more harm than good. If you only trust a single resource you're going to missing part of the picture.

Dave
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not found much detailed written material about the 'Adam Method', but this site has some interesting items - https://fishingtrumpet.com/articles/
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting the link, Jay. I bookmarked it to look at in more detail later.

In the mean time, I followed every link and simply did a word search for "embouchure." Most of what I found is some variation on, "If we keep our minds on a beautiful sound, on accelerating the air through the sound, on not forcing the sound, and forget the embouchure, many problems will disappear."

There is a bit of specific description of brass embouchure that was written. Here is one quote.

Quote:
Now we shall go on to the embouchure. I am convinced that the most workable embouchure is one that has the area behind the mouthpiece in a state of resilience and quite relaxed. At the mouth area outside the corners of the mouth there is firmness, but not a real tightness, and this feels like a warm tension. The trumpet muscles, or the buccinator muscles, are the muscles we utilize when we are getting ready to spit. The muscles should form a passageway for the air to be accelerated through the lips and through the horn. If we can retain the resilience and relaxation of the embouchure, we make it possible for our air to get through the lips and the horn without too many restrictions. The more we can cut down on the resistance of the air stream, the better the tone will be, and also the easier the horn will play.


If you want a more accurate description of what muscles are mainly utilized in a brass embouchure, I suggest VISUALIZATION OF TRUMPET PLAYERS’ WARM UP BY INFRARED THERMOGRAPHY available at https://matthias-bertsch.at/Downloads/MB-PDF/2000e_MB_trp.warmup.pdf. Here is a relevant quote from that resource.

Quote:
The analysis demonstrates that the main facial muscle activity during warm up is restricted to only a few muscle groups (M.orbicularis oris, M.depresor anguli oris). The “trumpeter’s muscle” (M.buccinator) proved to be of minor importance. Less trained players expressed a more inhomogenous thermographic pattern compared to well-trained musicians.


The bold emphasis is mine to highlight the inaccurate statement in Adam's resource.

Getting back to what Adam wrote:

Quote:
Trying to cure this reaching problem by studying the embouchure actually produces worse results than the problem we had in the first place.


According to Adam, studying the embouchure produces worse results. Refer to my culture of ignorance post above.

When he did write about a specific embouchure issue, such as a smile embouchure, he doesn't offer any advice beyond keeping the mind off the embouchure. Again, this was typical for his time (less so today, but still predominant, it seems).

Here's another quote from Adam.

Quote:
As the air flows through, it supports the embouchure and is quite responsible for its position and its relaxation and for the resilience of the mouth.


I believe that the video and photographic evidence I posted earlier shows that the position of the lips inside the mouthpiece is determined primarily by the mouthpiece placement, not by the air flow. That's not to suggest that air flow is irrelevant to good brass playing, just that we need to have an accurate understanding of what is actually happening.

Here's a Cichowicz quote that was linked to on the page Jay posted.

Quote:
By combining good musical standards, healthy breath support, and appropriate practice materials, the embouchure develops almost autonomously, with little direction.


That may be how Cichowicz taught, but this statement really begs the question if it really does. At least we know that this approach doesn't work all the time. At the very least, developing your own embouchure autonomously is going to keep you ignorant of what good embouchure technique looks like, leaving you ill-equipped to recognize whatever correction you own student needs to make. See my culture of ignorance post.

My point here is that pedagogues who have much to offer in many areas of brass teaching are often the last resource you want to go to regarding accurate descriptions of brass embouchure technique. And if we acknowledge that they have a deficiency in their understanding of this area, why is their advice on how to teach brass embouchure the default?

Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
Ignorance just means a lack of knowledge or awareness. We all have some areas where we are ignorant. Calling out ignorance can be considered rude, but acknowledging our shortcomings is the first step in correcting them.


Actually, the term "ignorance" is offensive to many. "Culture of ignorance" is just more of the same. Better to find a different way to express your dissatisfaction with current pedagogical approaches that you find lacking.

Continuing down this path will result in the thread either being locked or deleted.

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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
Not every teacher is going to have the best information on every single aspect of brass pedagogy. This is why I feel the dedicated forums perhaps do more harm than good. If you only trust a single resource you're going to missing part of the picture.


I totally agree with the above quote as well as "Remember the culture of ignorance. Don't let historical precedence select how you teach and learn, use accurate information guide you."

Based on your response, it seems that you think a functioning embouchure is the sole goal in trumpet playing; if the embouchure is good, then everything else is good. Is that an accurate assessment?

Disclaimer, I also have a massive issue with "historical precedence" aka the "suck and blow" methodology that many teacher utilize and utilize in an overly simplistic and nonhelpful manner, but the way you present yourself, it sounds like you just believe in a different set of scripture that is as narrow minded as the one you seem to be disparaging. Can you elaborate on what your teaching looks like a whole rather than just casting disparaging comments and saying what is essentially "the embouchure fixes everything and Reinhart is a god." Because it sounds a lot like those that say "the sound fixes everything and Adam is a god." Both odd positions.

Thanks!
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="abontrumpet"]
Wilktone wrote:
Based on your response, it seems that you think a functioning embouchure is the sole goal in trumpet playing; if the embouchure is good, then everything else is good. Is that an accurate assessment?


No, but that's how this discussion always gets framed. Embouchure needs to work in conjunction with breathing, tonguing, fingering, etc. No single element of good brass technique will make the others function well on their own. One of my points is we need to accurately address each as needed. The main point is that the cultural tradition we're stuck with in brass pedagogy actively discourages embouchure analysis, so that's the element that needs the most "cheerleading" to help more understand it.
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