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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
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 Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: | | It's faster and easier to tell a student to "sit up straight." I wouldn't worry about them freezing up because they have to think about playing with good posture in the practice room. Why do we worry about keeping a student's attention off their embouchure when it's really no different? |
In reading your dissertation and other posts, I generally have a problem with your logical arguments. This is one of them. The embouchure exists only while playing and is a necessary component of production. Sitting up exists with or without the playing. You cannot conflate these two physical acts.
| Wilktone wrote: | | No, we don't want to be thinking about how we're holding the ball in the middle of a game. We practice with correct shooting form precisely so that it becomes internalized and doesn't require thought. |
This is a bad analogy, in a sense, and I'll parse this in the second paragraph but---
Now you understand what I am trying to say. The psychology of teaching. If I feel a student cannot handle the weight of thinking of the embouchure because of the personality or capacity of the student to do so, I will not. For I don't want them to think the entire week about the embouchure and not the sound. Which CAN happen with students. It's very student by student. If I think a student will self correct, I won't need to correct it. Again, I don't think you are hearing what I'm saying.
As far as the analogy, for some people, focusing on any part of the embouchure would be like saying: "when you are shooting, I want you to really feel exactly what the second knuckle of your pinky finger is doing this entire week." ALSO, you generally work on shooting mechanics in a controlled environment (free throw) and is akin to "setting up" and playing a note. But then you use that internalized shot to shoot in a variety of angles, speed, etc. In general, once somebody is "set-up" (aka comfortable in playing mid register) they generally don't need to focus on it because, like you said, it becomes internalized. Long story short, again a logical argument that, when examined, agrees with me more than yourself.
| Wilktone wrote: | | One of my disagreements with how you seem to approach teaching brass embouchures is that the explicit instruction is only considered as a last resort. The other disagreement is what, I think, is your reluctance to consider objective descriptions of brass embouchure form and function as important to teach students about. |
And like I said, we disagree fundamentally.
| abontrumpet wrote: | | People who go: "yeah bro, teachers suck, we rock cuz end-result teaching is stupid" are just as lame as those that say "end result teaching is the be-all end-all and all alternatives are stupid." |
| Wilktone wrote: | | So no one is saying that. |
| Mike Sailors wrote: | | bg wrote: |
The "end result" teaching of today will be seen by future generations as the dark ages of trumpet teaching. |
I couldn't agree more. The upside is that there's not a lot of competition out here 😂 |
So let them defend their statements themselves.
| Wilktone wrote: | | What I am saying, and what I think some other folks are also agreeing with, is that the culture of ignorance regarding brass embouchure technique is a bad thing. |
The problem I have, is the beliefs as some people are presenting themselves fall into the same extreme position as those that say "the sound itself is the panacea." They are both extreme positions. The two posters (NOT YOU) I have an issue with and seek clarification seem to hold extreme positions (based on my interpretation), because that is how they presented it. I am just asking them to clarify their position. I used inflammatory language to provoke a response.
Last edited by abontrumpet on Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:54 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | ... If I feel a student cannot handle the weight of thinking of the embouchure because of the personality or capacity of the student to do so, I will not. ...
If I think a student will self correct, I won't need to correct it. ... |
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To me, this is saying there are some situations in which a student 'needs' and 'can' "handle the weight of thinking of the embouchure".
So, I assume that for those students you do some amount of explicit technique instruction, unless they "self correct" beforehand. It then becomes a question of 'how long', and whether the student has learned 'about how to play', versus 'now being able to play'.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | abontrumpet wrote: | ... If I feel a student cannot handle the weight of thinking of the embouchure because of the personality or capacity of the student to do so, I will not. ...
If I think a student will self correct, I won't need to correct it. ... |
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To me, this is saying there are some situations in which a student 'needs' and 'can' "handle the weight of thinking of the embouchure".
So, I assume that for those students you do some amount of explicit technique instruction, unless they "self correct" beforehand. It then becomes a question of 'how long', and whether the student has learned 'about how to play', versus 'now being able to play'. |
Perfect interpretation! |
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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I do think that if we look at the big picture we'd find we mostly agree with each other. It seems as if we're mostly focused on the nuance, but I think these are important areas to consider.
| Quote: | | In reading your dissertation and other posts, I generally have a problem with your logical arguments. This is one of them. The embouchure exists only while playing and works in tandem with production. Sitting up exists with or without the playing. You cannot conflate these two physical acts. |
Moving your hands exists without playing trumpet. Telling a trumpet student to push their mouthpiece and lips in a certain direction or place the mouthpiece in a particular place uses their hands.
Moving and forming our lips and tongue exists without playing trumpet. We talk, smile, eat food, and frown all the time. Many brass teachers address embouchure form through buzzing as one way to go about it. Lot's of teachers use speech patterns as a method to teach good articulations. And as one more data point here, my wife is a speech therapist and she tells me that there's nothing wrong with telling a client what to do with their mouth, provided they are intellectually capable of understanding (not always the case with young children or patients who have had a stroke).
How about valve technique? We wouldn't teach a student fingerings through an implicit approach (just imagine the note in your head with a strong professional sounding model and let the correct fingerings figure itself out). Instead we teach what the proper fingerings are and assign studies that are designed to improve our skills playing with the correct fingering without needing to think about which valves we're pushing down or the position of our fingers over the valves.
We're just talking about motor skills. The way we learn, develop, and retain motor skills seems to be similar, regardless of what the action is. What is it about the lips that make it different from the fingers, in your opinion?
| Quote: | | If I feel a student cannot handle the weight of thinking of the embouchure because of the personality or capacity of the student to do so, I will not. For I don't want them to think the entire week about the embouchure and not the sound. Which CAN happen with students. It's very student by student. If I think a student will self correct, I won't need to correct it. Again, I don't think you are hearing what I'm saying. |
I think I understand your point here. When the advice is both correct and scaffolded correctly so that you're not overwhelming a student with details there's only one or two things to practice and at a particular time. If a student is freezing up thinking about the embouchure all week they are either trying to play wrong or they are trying to think about too much at once. Frankly, I think the reason most players choke up when they try to analyze their embouchure is because they don't know what they don't know. Or that the advice they are being given is wrong.
That said, yes, you don't dump information on a student when they aren't ready for it.
| Quote: | | As far as the analogy, for some people, focusing on any part of the embouchure would be like saying: "when you are shooting, I want you to really feel exactly what the second knuckle of your pinky finger is doing this entire week." ALSO, you generally work on shooting mechanics in a controlled environment (free throw) and is akin to "setting up" and playing a note. But then you use that internalized shot to shoot in a variety of angles, speed, etc. In general, once somebody is "set-up" (aka comfortable in playing mid register) they generally don't need to focus on it because, like you said, it becomes internalized. I just don't understand why I'm still explaining myself. |
I think you just made my point, although with some hyperbole that is more extreme than what I'm suggesting ("second knuckle of your pinky finger"). For the trumpet player, for example, once we found out what his embouchure motion should be doing to ascend I gave him some exercises to practice ("in a controlled environment") that were simple enough that he would be able to play them so that he could practice ascending and descending correctly, using the sound as the guide to exactly how to make his embouchure motion work. Then once he became comfortable with it he would not need to think about it while playing music because he had established a habit of good embouchure motion form ("shoot in a variety of angles, speeds, etc.").
Or if you prefer, here is how Pat phrased it.
| Quote: | | When we practice we focus on certain things. When we play we trust those things. If they don't work well, we go back to drills and fundamentals...like working on the timing, changing the sparkplugs, etc. But when I drive my eyes are on the road. |
Are we both advocating for the same thing now?
Getting back to the observable embouchure characteristics that I've been pointing out, I don't think that you had a good awareness of them prior to our discussion. At least not enough to specifically note them and the resulting aural feedback that goes with them. Do you now agree that the tubist's air stream direction flip was a problem? Do you now agree that the trumpet player's embouchure motion was what was causing his upper register difficulties? The first step in helping a student play with better technique is to identify what needs improvement. Then we can sign drills and fundamental practice ("working on the timing, changing the spark plugs") that specifically address what we want to fix. I'm sure that you do this already with certain elements of brass technique.
Dave
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: | Moving your hands exists without playing trumpet. Telling a trumpet student to push their mouthpiece and lips in a certain direction or place the mouthpiece in a particular place uses their hands.
Moving and forming our lips and tongue exists without playing trumpet. We talk, smile, eat food, and frown all the time.
What is it about the lips that make it different from the fingers, in your opinion? |
You're still missing it. The embouchure ONLY exists when sound is being made. It is the ONLY thing that you cannot scrutinize unless you are literally producing sound. It is unique in this sense, and hopefully you can put the logical pieces together from here.
For me, you missing this point is more concerning and more greatly exhibits misunderstanding than me accurately pointing out embouchure movement but not using the right nomenclature.
| Wilktone wrote: | | Are we both advocating for the same thing now? |
Yes, but, AGAIN, we have a fundamentally different approach as to how to correct the issue in front of us.
| Wilktone wrote: | | Getting back to the observable embouchure characteristics that I've been pointing out, 1) I don't think that you had a good awareness of them prior to our discussion. At least not enough to specifically note them and the resulting aural feedback that goes with them. 2) Do you now agree that the tubist's air stream direction flip was a problem? 3) Do you now agree that the trumpet player's embouchure motion was what was causing his upper register difficulties? The first step in helping a student play with better technique is to identify what needs improvement. Then we can sign drills and fundamental practice ("working on the timing, changing the spark plugs") that specifically address what we want to fix. I'm sure that you do this already with certain elements of brass technique. |
1. I literally pointed them out correctly
2. I do not have sufficient evidence because I have not worked with the tubist.
3. I do not have sufficient evidence because I have not worked with the trumpeter, but my instinct is another faulty factor caused compensation in the embouchure. I am confident I could fix what you see without ever mentioning the embouchure quirk.
The drills I would assign are different than yours because we disagree fundamentally. If I tell a student that a certain set of playing characteristics are necessary to indicate good embouchure function, they have a lifelong set of skills and drills to address specific needs at certain times. If I only tell them to correct a singular aspect of their embouchure, IMO it pales in comparison in value for lifelong self-discovery and improvement. I share somatic knowledge to shortcut the process when the student can handle it, i.e., advanced habit-exhibiting students. My teaching is logic based, i.e., this is a truth, what does that mean for our playing? An example of this as it relates to the embouchure is: you want to have immediacy to your initial attacks/articulation, what are the components that create the environment for that characteristic? Guess what, embouchure is part of that. But it is framed in a way that is significantly more useful than what you have been presenting. This is what I call "end-result" teaching. Your logical structure would not pass the scrutiny I hold myself and my students to.
Last edited by abontrumpet on Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:53 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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LadFree
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Location: NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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When I have a young beginner I keep it simple as possible
but try to get them to repeat the good..When they become
a couple years older, I usually get them to get with the
Claude Gordon Systematic thing,but only lesson 1 for a few weeks
then lesson 2,and stay on that for months before moving on to week 3..And have them read the 7 points every day.
Very straight forward and concise IMO. |
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | | The embouchure ONLY exists when sound is being made. It is the ONLY thing that you cannot scrutinize unless you are literally producing sound. It is unique in this sense, and hopefully you can put the logical pieces together from here. |
What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Of course we are going to analyze the embouchure when the sound is being produced. I do the same thing with posture, breathing, etc. Making any mechanical correction will, at least eventually, require the student to address the fix while playing the instrument. There is no way around this.
So again, what makes the embouchure different from any other motor skill?
| abontrumpet wrote: | | 1. I literally pointed them out correctly |
No, you didn't. This is what you wrote about the tubist:
| abontrumpet wrote: | I'll put myself out there: for me, the tubist has so many issues with his sound, air, articulation (combo of both the previous), and I suspect that he isn't hearing those pitches perfectly that I wouldn't touch the embouchure function until he is making significant strides in those areas. Chances are things would resolve themselves. I'm not a tubist don't know what the acceptable levels of movement are around the mouthpiece, but playing it at half speed a lot of the inefficient embouchure positions he employs would be fixed if he played with a better sound. IMO the area under the mouthpiece is kind of pointless to evaluate visually.
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1. As I said before, for Tuba it is much harder to spot for me, but I did notice he utilized different setting for the same notes depending if he had come from below or above.
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That has nothing to do with lip position, mouthpiece placement, or air stream direction. In fact, you said that it was pointless to observe the functioning embouchure visually when that is the exact evidence that shows the issue in the first place. When you write that he "utilized different settings" for the same notes, I don't believe that the video shows him moving his mouthpiece placement to a different setting. The problem was that his mouthpiece placement is in the wrong place and doesn't provide enough lower lip (for him, other players do the opposite) for him to keep the air stream direction consistent.
Here is what you wrote about the trumpet player:
| abontrumpet wrote: | | 2) For the trumpeter, the video isn't diagnostic enough for me to say. I have a set of things that I check to see and take it from there. I can hear things he's doing with his buzz/connection and air that I would address before I determined any true embouchure disfunction. He is not playing the trumpet fundamentally well enough to address embouchure yet. IMO. |
There is no mention of pushing and pulling the mouthpiece and lips together as a single unit along the teeth and gums.
So I don't see how you can honestly state that you "literally pointed them out correctly." In fact, I think it's fair to say that you missed them completely.
| abontrumpet wrote: | | 2. I do not have sufficient evidence because I have not worked with the tubist. |
dstpt caught it without working with the tubist. I guarantee you that Doug and Brad knew exactly what was going on. I think Pat would be able to spot that too, especially since he attended a Zoom workshop I gave where I used that example, but I suspect he already understood embouchure air stream direction and its relationship to mouthpiece placement.
All the evidence you needed was provided. You just were unequipped with the background to spot it. Now you are.
| abontrumpet wrote: | | 3. I do not have sufficient evidence because I have not worked with the trumpeter, but my instinct is another faulty factor caused compensation in the embouchure. |
Likewise, all the evidence you needed to spot the cause of the issue was provided. You just didn't understand it earlier, so it was unlikely that you could diagnose it properly, even while working with the trumpet player.
| abontrumpet wrote: | | I am confident I could fix what you see without ever mentioning the embouchure quirk. |
I'm not trying to be a dork now, but I have to point out that if you weren't capable of correctly diagnosing the embouchure issues your approach is suspect. You don't know if your strategy will work because you don't know what needs to be fixed, can't evaluate if it's having the desired effect, and tries to address a problem through trial and error, rather than logically working out how a particular student should be playing and directly teaching how to do so.
Does anyone else not see the embouchure problems I pointed out in the tubist and trumpet player? Should I try to post different examples to help demonstrate how mouthpiece placement/air stream direction and embouchure motion are part of a well functioning embouchure?
Dave
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Mike Sailors
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | | Mike Sailors wrote: | | bg wrote: |
The "end result" teaching of today will be seen by future generations as the dark ages of trumpet teaching. |
I couldn't agree more. The upside is that there's not a lot of competition out here 😂 |
Since bg didn't respond to my earlier inquiry, care to elaborate? |
Not really. But, I wanted to echo Brad's comment because I think he's absolutely correct, and people - particularly young people, need to know there's a better way than what has traditionally been taught.
There's not a lot of great trumpet playing happening out here. There's a ton of bad trumpet playing going on. What does that say about the pedagogy?
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: | | Of course we are going to analyze the embouchure when the sound is being produced. . .There is no way around this. So again, what makes the embouchure different from any other motor skill? |
Correct. It has to do with bandwidth. Every other aspect of trumpet playing can be done without playing the horn, so you can dedicate 100% of mental bandwidth to correcting it. I can, without playing, sit up and bring my horn up to develop good habits. Embouchure is the only one where you MUST take some of the bandwidth away from PRODUCING and focus on ANALYZING. If you can't understand that, then again, we have very different fundamental beliefs
| abontrumpet wrote: | | 1. I literally pointed them out correctly |
No, you didn't. This is what you wrote about the tubist
| abontrumpet wrote: | Even great players puff cheeks only in some registers, lip placement and alignment look different vibrating as low and as high as they can play, etc.
THIS IS ALSO WHAT I WROTE |
Here is what you wrote about the trumpet player:
| abontrumpet wrote: | | So, I am not worried about that he is stretching his bottom lip out as he goes into the upper register, because it's likely not a mechanical issue. THIS IS ALSO WHAT I WROTE |
So I don't see how you can honestly state that you "literally pointed them out correctly." In fact, I think it's fair to say that you missed them completely.
| abontrumpet wrote: | | 2. I do not have sufficient evidence because I have not worked with the tubist. |
| Wilktone wrote: | dstpt caught it without working with the tubist
All the evidence you needed was provided. You just were unequipped with the background to spot it. Now you are. |
He caught it because you guys use the same nomenclature. I could see at times the tubist lower lip vibrated and upper lip vibrated, but I still don't know what is proper for tubists.
| Wilktone wrote: | | I'm not trying to be a dork now, but I have to point out that if you weren't capable of correctly diagnosing the embouchure issues your approach is suspect. You don't know if your strategy will work because you don't know what needs to be fixed, can't evaluate if it's having the desired effect, and tries to address a problem through trial and error, rather than logically working out how a particular student should be playing and directly teaching how to do so. |
I'm not trying to be a dork either, but I feel the same way about your assessment. We literally believe the same thing about each other BECAUSE WE HAVE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT BELIEFS ABOUT PEDAGOGY. Which is fine. We are talking past each other there is no reason to continue our discussion.
Based on everything you've written I would never send my student to you and I'm sure you wouldn't send yours to me. It's cool. If you have success, great. I know that my methods work and have consistently shown great improvement. I don't need to defend it to you any longer.
Last edited by abontrumpet on Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:50 am; edited 3 times in total |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Sailors wrote: | | abontrumpet wrote: | | Mike Sailors wrote: | | bg wrote: |
The "end result" teaching of today will be seen by future generations as the dark ages of trumpet teaching. |
I couldn't agree more. The upside is that there's not a lot of competition out here 😂 |
Since bg didn't respond to my earlier inquiry, care to elaborate? |
Not really. But, I wanted to echo Brad's comment because I think he's absolutely correct, and people - particularly young people, need to know there's a better way than what has traditionally been taught.
There's not a lot of great trumpet playing happening out here. There's a ton of bad trumpet playing going on. What does that say about the pedagogy? |
I totally agree. I would say most "teachers" are more musical coaches than actual teachers. There are just a handful of people that enact real change in the quality of a trumpeter beyond talking about crescendos, decrescendos, and dynamics. But the fact of the matter is, those that are "pedagogically great," in general, have end-result goals as part of their foundational belief. Otherwise, how do we determine what is great trumpet playing or not? |
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Mike Sailors
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Literally anyone one in the world could tell you Maurice Andre was a great trumpet player. One doesn’t have to know anything about trumpet or even music to hear that.
Knowledge is power. The success rate of the type of teaching you’re describing is, I’m sorry to say, not good - that is a fact and can be seen and heard the world over, day after day.
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, abontrumpet, I can't let you claim to have spotted the embouchure issues. You're shooting in the dark and then painting a target around where you hit. This has nothing to do with the language you're using, it has to do with your inability to spot the issues. In fact, in both of the examples I provided you tried to claim that they didn't have embouchure problems, there was something else that needed addressing.
| Quote: | | Every other aspect of trumpet playing can be done without playing the horn, so you can dedicate 100% of mental bandwidth to correcting it. I can, without playing, sit up and bring my horn up to develop good habits. Embouchure is the only one where you MUST take some of the bandwidth away from PRODUCING and focus on ANALYZING. |
*sigh*
"Bandwith" has nothing to do with your lack of understanding of embouchure form and function. You can address certain embouchure issues away from the horn (I already provided some basic examples). Regardless, we always have to address certain things while playing the instrument and there's no way around this fact. I prefer to teach my students how to do that correctly (in the practice room) and understand when not to do that (in the rehearsal or performance).
You don't teach someone how to swim without having them jump in the pool.
You can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into in the first place, so my comments aren't really for you, they are for the lurkers. You're too invested in your approach to examine others, I think. The evidence I provided and accurate descriptions of embouchure technique speak for themselves.
Best of luck with your playing and teaching.
Dave
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JayKosta
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ... The success rate of the type of teaching you’re describing is, I’m sorry to say, not good ... |
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There's also a good chance that the 'description' and reader's 'understanding' of the method does not correlate with how it is done in practice.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Last edited by JayKosta on Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Sailors wrote: | Literally anyone one in the world could tell you Maurice Andre was a great trumpet player. One doesn’t have to know anything about trumpet or even music to hear that.
Knowledge is power. The success rate of the type of teaching you’re describing is, I’m sorry to say, not good - that is a fact and can be seen and heard the world over, day after day. |
Yes, I totally agree with this too. I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm talking about but I've already beat this conversation to death.
End-result meaning: we want to be able to fix this issue, what are the components we need to rectify it. End result is to fix, that allows us to organize the elements of fixing it. Not what you described. The simple - hear it and believe it is not the teaching that I am describing. |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: | You're too invested in your approach to examine others, I think. The evidence I provided and accurate descriptions of embouchure technique speak for themselves.
Best of luck with your playing and teaching. |
To quote you: *sigh*
As are you, I think. You constantly misunderstand and twist my points to paint me into the villain you need when in reality we agree on probably 98% of pedagogy. You're just refusing to understand pretty much anything of what I've written. Or maybe you just aren't reading me carefully enough? So I don't wish to participate any further in this thread. If you ever want to call me to discuss, feel free to DM me.
Same to you! |
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | | As are you, I think. But you certainly did not provide evidence and you provided descriptions as useful as mine (since neither of our descriptions were backed with evidence, they are both not useful). But get it right: I never said they didn't have embouchure issues. |
OK, so you deleted the above comment before too long, so perhaps you reconsidered what you wrote.
I will concede that you didn't say they didn't have embouchure issues. But you were first unable to spot and articulate the embouchure issues those students had. Then you questioned whether their embouchure issues should be directly addressed and suggested that by working on something else their embouchure issues would go away.
But when it comes to evidence, I will call you out on your statement above. The videos I posted clearly show the embouchure principles I discussed and the descriptions I provided of what to look and listen for are there for you to see. They are useful because they describe reality.
Dismissing the truth because you can't think about it while playing isn't helpful, nor is it good teaching.
Dave
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abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1776
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: | | OK, so you deleted the above comment before too long, so perhaps you reconsidered what you wrote. |
I did and I implore you to read what I wrote above in its stead. I did it because I didn't want to engender any more discussion. But here we are.
| Wilktone wrote: | But when it comes to evidence, I will call you out on your statement above. The videos I posted clearly show the embouchure principles I discussed and the descriptions I provided of what to look and listen for are there for you to see. They are useful because they describe reality.
Dismissing the truth because you can't think about it while playing isn't helpful, nor is it good teaching. |
Not dismissing the truth. My goodness! Again, twisting what I said to paint me into a villain (as I said above). I NEVER said you can't think about it while playing. You aren't understanding basic english. My argument is MUCH more nuanced than that.
Regardless. I am saying my bar for the TRUTH is much higher than yours. Until you show me a before video, a video of you teaching the student, and the after video, I will not concede that simply changing embouchure function while keeping all other aspects of playing the same is the 100% cure for what we see in your short video.
I'm saying, have better evidence because you have left room for reasonable doubt.
You have understood nothing of what I have written based on your responses. |
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Wilktone
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Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | | Not dismissing the truth. My goodness! Again, twisting what I said to paint me into a villain (as I said above). |
No, you're not a villain, you're just ignorant. Why should we trust your judgment if you don't demonstrate that you understand basic embouchure mechanics? I'm not trying to be mean here, but this is a legitimate question for any teacher who dismisses embouchure analysis and can't describe what good embouchure form is in the first place.
| abontrumpet wrote: | | I NEVER said you can't think about it while playing. You aren't understanding basic english. My argument is MUCH more nuanced than that. |
Your inability to accurately describe your nuance is not my fault. Throughout this conversation you've continued to insinuate that the embouchure characteristics I pointed out are unnecessary to worry about, at best. You also have some hangup about thinking about the embouchure while playing and that this is the only area in brass playing that can only be analyzed while playing. There's not a lot of nuance there that I can find.
| abontrumpet wrote: | | Regardless. I am saying my bar for the TRUTH is much higher than yours. Until you show me a before video, a video of you teaching the student, and the after video, I will not concede that simply changing embouchure function while keeping all other aspects of playing the same is the 100% cure for what we see in your short video. |
Now you are moving the goalpost. The videos clearly show what I discussed.
It is not controversial that brass embouchures function upstream or downstream and that this is determined by mouthpiece placement. The tubist clearly has problems right at the spot where his lips flip position and moving the placement so that they don't fight for predominance in any point in his range fixes that. The videos also show him struggling in his upper register and show how when he moves his placement lower he can access higher notes.
It is not controversial that brass musicians push and pull their lips as a single unit while changing registers. The videos of the two trumpet players without issues clearly demonstrate that. The video of the trumpet player struggling in his upper register shows what happens when the embouchure motion technique isn't working correctly. When he fixed his embouchure motion his upper register improved immediately. The video footage I provided clearly shows this.
| abontrumpet wrote: | | I'm saying, have better evidence because you have left room for reasonable doubt. |
Where is your evidence? Anything that is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
For anyone who is curious to learn more about the embouchure characteristics that I've discussed here (and more) I have set up a resource on my web site. You can also learn more about my teaching and playing background over there, if that matters to you.
https://wilktone.com/?page_id=5619
Dave
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Doug Elliott
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Joined: 10 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| The one good thing that has come out of all this ridiculousness is that I've given a bunch of great Skype lessons to lurkers who are actually interested in learning and improving their playing instead of arguing about it. |
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abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1776
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Oof. Like I said, give me a call if you want to discuss further. But I'll respond to this because you have some outrageous things written here.
| Wilktone wrote: | | No, you're not a villain, you're just ignorant. Why should we trust your judgment if you don't demonstrate that you understand basic embouchure mechanics? I'm not trying to be mean here, but this is a legitimate question for any teacher who dismisses embouchure analysis and can't describe what good embouchure form is in the first place. |
I never dismissed embouchure analysis. I can also call you ignorant, because you don't understand anything I've written, which means you do not have the same worldview as I do. You have spent time living in your world and making the best of that, and same with me. But you're basically coming from a different country and calling me ignorant because my country has different ways of talking and customs. What a high horse!
Additionally, I'm not saying you should trust my judgement. I don't claim to have all the answers as you seem to be claiming. Behold, the best teacher in the world right here, Dave. I am an anonymous internet stranger. You shouldn't trust anybody. Be skeptical. It is foundational to learning.
| Wilktone wrote: | | Your inability to accurately describe your nuance is not my fault. Throughout this conversation you've continued to insinuate that the embouchure characteristics I pointed out are unnecessary to worry about, at best. You also have some hangup about thinking about the embouchure while playing and that this is the only area in brass playing that can only be analyzed while playing. There's not a lot of nuance there that I can find. |
I feel I am being clear, but you show evidence of, many times, rewording what I say to mean something else. I don't think this is a me issue in this case. But you have brought up numerous clarifying points that hopefully lead to clarity here.
I have never said that the embouchure characteristics are unnecessary to worry about, I said that SOMETIMES they resolve themselves. The teacher SHOULD worry (be aware, knowledgeable and keep track of) but sometimes they don't need to worry the student (keeping a good mental space of learning if the teacher deems it will be more productive that way).
I do not have ANY hangup about thinking about the embouchure while playing. I did not say that it is the only area in brass playing that can only be analyzed while playing I said: "The embouchure ONLY exists when sound is being made. It is the ONLY thing that you cannot scrutinize unless you are literally producing sound." You can analyze ALL aspects of brass playing while playing. But the embouchure exists only when sound is being made. It is like...a basic fundamental truth. You don't have a trumpet embouchure when you are eating pizza. You don't have a trumpet embouchure when you are playing the flute. You only have a trumpet embouchure when you are playing sound on the trumpet (or the mouthpiece etc). It was just defining the temporal nature of the embouchure. You cannot find nuance because you are not taking every word I say is vital to the meaning of the sentence.
I know the embouchure is a vital part of the system. I have not dismissed it. I know with my colleagues (especially one I chat with a lot) I say: my goodness, if I had only known how much embouchure is part of the equation when I was going through school. I know its ability to change playing for the better. But some 10 year old can't possibly understand it yet.
| Wilktone wrote: | | Now you are moving the goalpost. The videos clearly show what I discussed. |
I am not moving the goalpost. My threshold has been the same the whole time, you will see that if you reread my posts. Your videos have never provided sufficient evidence for me and I called you out on it time after time. Just because you never understood my goalpost (because of lack of reading comprehension) doesn't mean they weren't in the same place the whole time for me. I think it is a fine barrier for truth: show me evidence of you telling somebody to do something with their embouchure mechanics and it working in the moment and I'll believe it.
| Wilktone wrote: | | It is not controversial that brass embouchures function upstream or downstream and that this is determined by mouthpiece placement. The tubist clearly has problems right at the spot where his lips flip position and moving the placement so that they don't fight for predominance in any point in his range fixes that. The videos also show him struggling in his upper register and show how when he moves his placement lower he can access higher notes. |
I told you repeatedly I have no idea if tubists regularly switch from up to down stream. And until you show me every pro under the kelly mouthpiece I still won't know! But I will say your solution looked best for his future. Just debating approach. Clearly his teacher before you had thoughts that effected the ability for things to naturally progress. So you had to undo that stuff. But what if he never met the teacher before you in the first place. Would he have had those issues?
| Wilktone wrote: | | It is not controversial that brass musicians push and pull their lips as a single unit while changing registers. The videos of the two trumpet players without issues clearly demonstrate that. The video of the trumpet player struggling in his upper register shows what happens when the embouchure motion technique isn't working correctly. When he fixed his embouchure motion his upper register improved immediately. The video footage I provided clearly shows this. |
I already told you I agree, and pointed it out correctly. But I will admit I did not see the video where you taught him. Just the before and after.
| Wilktone wrote: | | Where is your evidence? Anything that is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. |
If you read carefully I said we both don't have evidence. I never said I have evidence, but I am just having a philosophical discussion about how I approach things and you are making it sound like your statements are verifiable truths, that are the be-all end-all, and that everybody should focus solely on because that alone makes you the the best teacher in the world. I'm saying, well, yeah thats important, but so is a lot of other stuff too.
Hopefully this clarified things for you.
Last edited by abontrumpet on Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:34 am; edited 6 times in total |
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