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spitvalve
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 Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| cbtj51 wrote: |
A most enjoyable example of beautiful music played wonderfully well!!!
Life is Short, find the Joy in it!
Mike |
The flugelhorn in this context is really a soprano euphonium. I can't get that sound on flugel no matter how hard I try. I've only used the flugel for jazz.
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Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
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1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
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Didymus
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: | @ Dydimus
Years ago, I bought Chis Botti's Italia CD that included a DVD on the making of the album. I think it's his best work. In it, he talks about his approach to the trumpet and why he chooses to play the way he does and why he and his sound engineer craft his sound the way they do.
He said he wants to present the trumpet as an easy-listening instrument for a broader range of listeners than the more music savvy musician-based audience that typically chooses jazz players (like Miles) for their daily listening repertoire.
In another interview, Sting told how he discovered Chris and invited him to come on tour. He noted how Chris "presented himself well" and we all see that. He is very aware of how he looks to his audience, not out of vanity, but in a professional manner. I think part of his avoidance of the flugelhorn is that it doesn't fit the overall presentation he's after.
Over the years I've been on TH, threads periodically pop up that criticize Botti for being "too commercial" and not that much of a musician. That's Bolshevik!  Like Kenny G and Herb Alpert before him, Chris knows that musicians are poor and the money to be made is with in a largely female audience not made up of musicians, but everyday ladies. They like a sexy looking guy and will spend money to get as close to him as their pocket books will allow. The LOOK is far more important than what the flugelhorn has to offer. |
I am sorry for the reaction the last part of your reply received. If you don't mind, though, I would like to avoid the part of your reply which provoked the pushback. I underlined the parts that I specifically wanted to address.
When I was watching the first Doctor Strange movie, I noticed the writers give a line to the lead character which caught my interest. At the beginning of the movie, Stephan Strange is playing a verbal form of Trivia Pursuit with his colleagues while performing neurosurgery in the operating room, and dominating the competition. (I'm guessing it was a plot device to show that he was both so brilliant and talented at his job that he could multitask and dominate an unrelated intellectual activity with no difficultly.) One of the answers to a trivia question was "Chuck Mangione", and Stephen remarked that it was (paraphrase), "Incredible that Mangione enjoyed a top 10 pop hit playing a band instrument."
As if the flügelhorn is any more or less a band instrument in the United States than the saxophone. Actually, I can say that a saxophone should more associated with the label here in the U.S. than a flügelhorn. We usually do not see flügelhorns in American concert bands at the grade-school level. Parents usually aren't renting one for their kids in middle school. It's off the radar until they turn on the TV and/or the radio, and then they will usually see it in the hands of a well-dressed, charismatic & supercool jazz musician who is playing an easy-listening jazz ballad on it. Sometimes it will be noticed in a swing band, again in the hands of an accomplished soloist who has the direct attention of an audience. In contrast, concert bands and swing bands usually have an entire section of saxophones. The saxophones will be noticed by their sheer numbers.
Maybe the more artsy adult audiences will see and hear flügelhorns in higher-level wind ensembles and symphony orchestras, but here in the U.S. it's mostly seen in the context of jazz and pop performances. I'm not considering British Brass Bands and Low Country Fanfares because both those band genres simply aren't as popular in the U.S. as they are in their originating countries.
Is the flügelhorn a nerdy and uncool band instrument which is a poor fit for the image of a cool musician? Musicians can and do look cool and market themselves as such when holding trumpets and tenor saxophones. I believe the smooth, fashionable look can be marketed while holding a flügelhorn.
(They may have more difficulty marketing "coolness" with a clarinet or trombone, but we can leave that a for a discussion for another day.)
I have found that most casual listeners do not even know what the difference between a trumpet and a flügelhorn is. When it is pointed out, they might admit that they assumed they were simply seeing and hearing a different kind of trumpet, and they might hear the difference. In Chuck Mangione's case, they'll remember the hat and the beard part of his visual schtick more than they remember the name of the big fat trumpet he likes to play. In my experience, when I point out that a player is using a flügelhorn on a particular song, the reaction I often get is, "Really? What's a flooo-gull-horn? It just sounds like he's playing a trumpet in a gentle way. I like it, it's cool, I don't care what it is."
I took Botti's comment to be like part scold and part brag. It was like he was telling other pro trumpeters that he didn't need the flügelhorn as a crutch because he can play the trumpet properly. OK. His opinion, it's going to carry weight with some people due to his fame and skill, but it's still his opinion. I'm not a professional, nonetheless I found the quote to be more presumptuous than risible.
Other commercial players who compete for Botti's audience, or play music whose audience overlaps with Botti's audience, use the flügel. I guess they will be astonished to learn that, after all this time, they weren't playing the trumpet correctly. Examples like Rick Braun or Lee Loughnane come to mind. And so does Arturo Sandoval. Anyone wants to tell Mr. Sandoval that he can make his trumpet sound like a flügelhorn with enough proper practice? LOL. Who wants to dare to presume to lecture Sandoval about proper practice?  I guess Chris Botti thinks he can!
Or maybe I am making too much out of his quote.  
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Last edited by Didymus on Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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delano
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| A lot of words with zero understanding packed in the name of an ancient musicologist, hamburger culture. |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:15 am Post subject: |
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@Didymus
I really enjoyed your well-composed and well-reasoned discourse. I just have one minor observation to make:
If the writers of the movie script gave Stephan Strange the line, "Incredible that Mangione enjoyed a top 10 pop hit playing a band instrument", I suspect they were thinking in the context wind instrument as opposed to guitar. They were just lumping all wind instruments together in a 'generally unpopular today' category that they termed "band instrument" without even considering which wind instruments are more prevalent in actual concert bands in the U.S.
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"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Last edited by Halflip on Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BreakFromTheHerd
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:15 am Post subject: |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | | A lot of words with zero understanding packed in the name of an ancient musicologist, hamburger culture. |
Oh-oh . . . I guess I disagree somewhat with what you say, delano, but as an 'old-style' American, I'll defend to the death your right to say it! 
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Last edited by Halflip on Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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deleted_user_34face8
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Alex Brain wrote: | Whilst I can't offer much to the rest of the discussion; as something of both a Marvel and Trumpet geek (with a bit of time to kill waiting around today...), that is not the quote from Doctor Strange.
He says '[Chuck Mangione]...the man charted a top ten hit with a flugelhorn!'
The clip is on youtube . . .
There is no mention of it being a 'band instrument'. |
Well, I guess it's "Oops day" today as far as I'm concerned!
In a futile attempt to save face, I edited my prior post to say "If the writers of the movie script . . . " rather than "When the writers of the movie script . . . "
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Didymus
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:08 pm Post subject: You're right: |
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@ Alex Brain
I looked up the transcription of the entire scene:
Dr. Stephen Strange: Challenge round, Billy.
(With that, Billy started playing the other song.)
Dr. Stephen Strange: Oh, come on, Billy. You’ve got to be messing with me.
Dr. Billy: (chuckles) No, Doctor.
Dr. Stephen Strange: Feels So Good, Chuck Mangione, 1977. Seriously, Billy, you said this one would be hard.
Dr. Billy: Hah! It’s 1978.
Dr. Stephen Strange: No, Billy, while Feels So Good may have charted in 1978, the album was released in December, 1977.
Dr. Billy: No, no. Wikipedia says the...
Dr. Stephen Strange: Check again.
Dr. Billy: When did you...?
The Doctor: Where do you store all this useless information?
Dr. Stephen Strange: Useless? The man charted a top ten hit with a Flügelhorn. Status, Billy?
Dr. Billy: 1977.
The Doctor: Oh! Please. I hate you.
Dr. Stephen Strange: Woah! "Feels so good", doesn’t it?
Not only I was wrong about exactly what Stephen Strange said, I was also wrong about the game they were playing. They were playing a variant "Name That Tune" not "Trivia Pursuit".
Oh, well.
In any case, Stephen seemed to dismiss the flügelhorn as something that is usually considered unhip or uncool, not an easy fit with pop culture of that era. I don't necessarily agree with that judgement, but I can see where it came from. There were plenty of horn arrangers and producers who sweetened tracks by writing & recording/dubbing flügelhorn tracks into pop music. They did the same with violins (strings) and adding a trombone or two in horn sections, and nonetheless I would be hard-pressed to find a pop star who charted hits playing a violin or a trombone.
BTW, It's not a minor observation, even if I said I was paraphrasing and not exactly quoting. All of what I wrote about how band instruments are perceived by pop music fans is no longer as relevant. I'm also a big fan of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and I'm also terrible at quoting movies. I should have looked up that quote instead of attempting to paraphrase it.
Do "casual" pop music fans specifically find the flügelhorn to be different to the point of being uncool?
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Didymus
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:36 pm Post subject: Relax! |
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| Halflip wrote: | | delano wrote: | | A lot of words with zero understanding packed in the name of an ancient musicologist, hamburger culture. |
Oh-oh . . . I guess I disagree somewhat with what you say, delano, but as an 'old-style' American, I'll defend to the death your right to say it! |
He's just trying to pick a fight for the sake of picking a fight, like the fellow who got bent out of shape because of what Shofarguy wrote.
Even though this comment belongs in the Reveille forum, I'll write it anyway: This thread has two unfortunate examples of why many participants simply pack up and leave the Trumpet Herald. Nitpicking, trolling, outright abuse.
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delano
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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The way this thread goes, in Holland we say: I can’t make chocolate out of it. The curse of internet I presume.
Edit: just saw your post, mr.D there will be no fight simply because you are the only one who is responsible for your interpretation of the words of Botti. What you don’t understand is that Chris Botti is a serious and competent musician so you can take his words also seriously. So your interpretation is not necessary, is negative and only based on guessing. Only the last sentence (question?) of your post makes sense. |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: You're right: |
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| Didymus wrote: | | Do "casual" pop music fans specifically find the flügelhorn to be different to the point of being uncool? |
To reiterate the point I made in my first post on this page of the thread, I think "casual" pop music fans find all wind instruments to be more or less irrelevant -- they are accustomed to pop groups that use only guitars, bass guitars, drums, and maybe electronic keyboards. It has nothing to do with the flugelhorn specifically. (Please reread my first post on this page of the thread.)
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Relax! |
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| Didymus wrote: | | He's just trying to pick a fight for the sake of picking a fight, like the fellow who got bent out of shape because of what Shofarguy wrote. |
I have traded constructive posts with delano a number of times before, and I don't feel he is a troll; that is why I referenced his post in a solicitous manner. (Sometimes you have to be a connoisseur to be able to see the difference, though. )
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Shawnino
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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1. I'd like to think that Botti is talented, and good enough to get it done with a student horn on a rainy night in Stoke.
2. If he wants to make his trumpet sound very mellow, more power to him as an artist expressing himself.
3. I'm not sure he's mocking people who double on fluegels to get a mellow sound at all. If he is, well I'd ask him to leave his bespoke sound engineer and tens of thousands in effects equipment at home and repeat it.
4. There are lots of players with enough talent to be commercially successful if the audience lived eyes closed in a vacuum. The audience doesn't.
Anyone who doesn't believe that physical appearance, backstory, connections, or some other x-factor isn't at least as important as musical ability when it comes to commercial success is deluding himself. If people want to delude themselves out of politics/puritanism, well, have at it. |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Shawnino wrote: | 1. I'd like to think that Botti is talented, and good enough to get it done with a student horn on a rainy night in Stoke.
2. If he wants to make his trumpet sound very mellow, more power to him as an artist expressing himself.
3. I'm not sure he's mocking people who double on fluegels to get a mellow sound at all. If he is, well I'd ask him to leave his bespoke sound engineer and tens of thousands in effects equipment at home and repeat it.
4. There are lots of players with enough talent to be commercially successful if the audience lived eyes closed in a vacuum. The audience doesn't.
Anyone who doesn't believe that physical appearance, backstory, connections, or some other x-factor isn't at least as important as musical ability when it comes to commercial success is deluding himself. If people want to delude themselves out of politics/puritanism, well, have at it. |
+1
In particular, I don't think Botti is mocking people who double on flugelhorns. I offer myself as the perfect litmus test: I am completely unoffended by his comment, and I own 14 flugelhorns (assuming you include kuhlohorns in that category).
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | I offer myself as the perfect litmus test: I am completely unoffended by his comment, and I own 14 flugelhorns (assuming you include kuhlohorns in that category). |
Gee, it's too bad you don't like flugelhorns very much.  Only 14?
_________________
Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| spitvalve wrote: | | Gee, it's too bad you don't like flugelhorns very much. Only 14? |
Yes, I'm ashamed to admit it, but it's true -- only 14. I guess I'm just a slacker. 
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | spitvalve wrote: | | Gee, it's too bad you don't like flugelhorns very much. Only 14? |
Yes, I'm ashamed to admit it, but it's true -- only 14. I guess I'm just a slacker. |
You don't have an extra King Golden Flair Trumpet in your menagerie that you want to part with, do you?
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Halflip
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | You don't have an extra King Golden Flair Trumpet in your menagerie that you want to part with, do you? |
I'll keep you posted, kehaulani. If I want to sell, you'll have first dibs.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:04 am Post subject: Re: You're right: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | Didymus wrote: | | Do "casual" pop music fans specifically find the flügelhorn to be different to the point of being uncool? |
To reiterate the point I made in my first post on this page of the thread, I think "casual" pop music fans find all wind instruments to be more or less irrelevant -- they are accustomed to pop groups that use only guitars, bass guitars, drums, and maybe electronic keyboards. It has nothing to do with the flugelhorn specifically. |
True, though there's also a tendency in pop-culture to focus on classical musical instruments as a metaphor for 'uncoolness' (especially strings, larger wind instruments and the triangle). The trumpet and alto sax kinda avoided that fate, but everything else that isn't in a rock band is generally considered fair game for target practice by cartoon artists and sitcom writers.
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