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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:21 pm Post subject: Is rose/yellow brass color due to the lacquer or the metal? |
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If you see a horn that for example has a rose-colored bell and yellow valves, is the coloration due to the lacquer that's used or are the metals actually different colors?
[/img] _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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ldwoods Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1843 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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I am not an authority, but it has always been my understanding the color is due to the base metal, not any kind of shading of unique laquers. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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You'd need to know the metallurgy of the brass alloy for the various pieces.
If there's a description that says something such as 'rose colored bell' that might indicate lacquer color rather than a particular brass alloy. If the description says 'xyz brass' that would imply the alloy. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Lacquer (or whatever they use today) can be tinted to give a different hue to the metal, but generally, instruments are lacquered overall after they’re soldered together. It would be pretty tedious to lacquer different parts of an instrument different colors after it’s assembled, and you can’t lacquer parts of a horn before they’re soldered together. So…I’d say that flugelhorn has a bell made of gold brass, or possibly of rose brass.. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 692 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, as everyone says, the mix of copper and zminc. Some instruments actually have bronze, which is copper and tin.
Yellow brass is 70% copper and 30% zinc. Gold brass about 80/20 and rose brass 85 to 90% copper.
Aside from appearance, the differences change some of the tone and focus of the sound, and can also resist red rot better than yellow brass. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Yellow brass, as used by instrument companies, is 70% copper and 30% zinc. It depends on the foundry, as to what is in the alloy. Byron Autrey felt that Staub had something like 5% nickel in the brass stock they used to make the original Destino horns. He felt there was a stiffness to the horns response and suspected there had to be more than just copper and zinc.
Rose brass is often sited as an 85/15 percent ratio. Red brass might be 90/10, or something close to that.
Another Byron tidbit came from his study of Besson instruments from the late 19th and early 20th century. He said that the copper the French were mining at that time was more pure and could be formed with an alloy of 66/34% copper to zinc ratio. He felt this contributed to their legendary resonance, as it allowed the bells to be drawn to incredible thicknesses as thin as 0.009" (measured). _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2163 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | is the coloration due to the lacquer that's used or are the metals actually different colors |
The metals actually different colors. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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French brass : roughly 64% copper
Yellow brass : roughly 70% copper
Gold brass : 75-80% copper
Rose brass : 80-85% copper
Red brass : 85-95% copper
Copper : >95% copper
Casing brass : French to yellow brass including some percentage lead _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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TheGecko251 Regular Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2022 Posts: 20 Location: La -> Philly
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Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Is rose/yellow brass color due to the lacquer or the met |
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Robert P wrote: | If you see a horn that for example has a rose-colored bell and yellow valves, is the coloration due to the lacquer that's used or are the metals actually different colors?
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could be either, most manufacturers' lacquer is clear so the color of the metal underneath is what you're seeing, but also some specialized manufacturers have options to color the lacquer. 90% of the time its probably just the color of the metal underneath tho _________________ Aleko
Adams A4 Custom
Ytr-734
King Cleveland 602 |
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