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New courtois confluence



 
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sd4f
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:32 am    Post subject: New courtois confluence Reply with quote

I like courtois instruments, so after them having closed their production in the last decade, and stopping production of trumpets and cornets, I was excited to notice that they're coming back to trumpets with a new Confluence line.

https://www.a-courtois.com/en/instruments/trompettes-2/ac335-confluence/

Interested in your thoughts? I've been keeping an eye out for a decent Courtois trumpet in C, so these new ones have piqued my interest, and would love to try one out, and see what it feels and plays like. A few things though, concern me that this current line basically maintains no continuity with the older production instruments, which I'm really fond of.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The confluence of French design and the excellence of our German workshops has given birth to 4 trumpets within the new Confluence range: 2 in Bb and 2 in C"

My experience with the new (ten years ago?) Courtois production is seeing a flugelhorn and trumpet with German valves. They were a loose fit , which doesn't bode well for long-term wear. Horns played fine, though.
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

May be this can be of interest for you:
https://youtu.be/15HT4e4XD7k
In French but English subtitles available. As far as I understand, the target is to recreate the « traditional French sound ».
By the way Adrien Jaminet is my own excellent repairman and Clément Saunier a great player.
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sd4f
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched those videos, interesting, but in watching them, I thought they showcase the trumpets very little, which I thought was a bit strange.

In any case, I find it interesting if they're going against the current with bore size, by going smaller. I think there's a place for a different approach. I'm not really sure what the "French" sound exactly is, but I know I really like my French made instruments.

What I'm not impressed is that some of the unique features of Courtois instruments haven't made it. For one, they what in my opinion was the best design of slide stop, using a spring loaded nylon ball, which allowed to slide to come off without having to turn a screw. Otherwise, I can see that the instrument is basically a B&S trumpet underpinning it, with a few changed parts.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a Courtois "Delmotte" C trumpet years ago and it had a very pointed and almost nasal tone quality. A very good instrument, but I doubt it would blend with the standard sound required in this country's orchestras.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
I had a Courtois "Delmotte" C trumpet years ago and it had a very pointed and almost nasal tone quality. A very good instrument, but I doubt it would blend with the standard sound required in this country's orchestras.

I am curious if orchestras in any countries would desire that tone. I have read about Germans preferring a darker sound. I haven’t read anything about Australia where the OP is from though.
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interfx
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks interesting. Has anyone played one yet?

Although, I've never seen a brace that far back into the bell crook before?
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sd4f
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
I am curious if orchestras in any countries would desire that tone. I have read about Germans preferring a darker sound. I haven’t read anything about Australia where the OP is from though.


I wouldn't really know, I'm very much an amateur musician.

I think that german rotary sound suits their repertoire more, while the more post-romantic, contemporary repertoire may favour a piercing trumpet sound.

In any case, I find it odd, because my courtois piccolo on the other hand, tends to have a rather consistent tone which makes it not sound like a piccolo sound on many recordings, rather closer to a regular trumpet playing high.

I think that's where I have a bit of trouble with the youtube videos, because they sort of describe the instrument in flowery language (but not sound), like a lot of wine reviews, but ultimately are meaningless to me. Maybe that is very french...
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sd4f wrote:
...I'm not impressed is that some of the unique features of Courtois instruments haven't made it. For one, they what in my opinion was the best design of slide stop, using a spring loaded nylon ball, which allowed to slide to come off without having to turn a screw.....

Agreed. One of the best designs EVER! I've had them on my EVO models...coolest 3rd slide stop ever! I wonder if Courtois has some extras lying around at the factory that I could get for cheap!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those not knowing about national orchestral sound, back in the day when taking a "blindfold test", you could fairly much identify the Russian, English, French and German orchestras by their sounds, both orchestrally and individual-player wise, even their equipment influenced that. Not so much now.

This is probably caused by the proliferation of recordings on a world-wide market combined with the flexibility of conductors guest conducting various orchestras. Add to that a German-schooled conductor conducting on a permanent basis a French orchestra, etc.

If I had the bread, and if the smaller horn is truly old-school French, I would love to have it for playing French solo repertoire, or the orchestral parts to Coppelia etc.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone know what the small-bore Bb would go for?
Are there any sound clips?
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed the C is in M and ML bore - as opposed to the typical orchestral L bore you generally see.

Interesting.
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sd4f
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
I noticed the C is in M and ML bore - as opposed to the typical orchestral L bore you generally see.

Interesting.


Other thing is, M bores have a reverse lead pipe, while the ML bores have a normal lead pipe. Bore sizes are 11.4mm and 11.65mm respectively, or 0.449" and 0.459" in imperial units.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
I noticed the C is in M and ML bore - as opposed to the typical orchestral L bore you generally see. Interesting.

Would the difference of the delicacy of Debussy with the power of Mahler have something to do with that?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I contacted Josh Landress and he said that he's under the impression that they were initially made in low quantity for the French market.

I would assume that if all goes well, they will expand to the American market. Purely speculative, though.

Josh was a good guy to pass along this info so quickly and accurately.
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J. Landress Brass
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I contacted Josh Landress and he said that he's under the impression that they were initially made in low quantity for the French market.

I would assume that if all goes well, they will expand to the American market. Purely speculative, though.

Josh was a good guy to pass along this info so quickly and accurately.


This is FACT...

Production was only 20 horns all together in the confluence line and were all purchased by French Dealers as the designer on this project is a friend and well respected French repairman and designer.

Buffet Group has not yet released the horn in the United States and will likely be introduced at ITTG this year or possibly a bit earlier at NAMM.

There has not been a single horn shipped to the US for testing, sale or any other purpose.
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the photos, it appears to be quite elegant.

I miss the Selmer Paris trumpets as well.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Crazy Finn wrote:
I noticed the C is in M and ML bore - as opposed to the typical orchestral L bore you generally see. Interesting.

Would the difference of the delicacy of Debussy with the power of Mahler have something to do with that?

Could be. The "French" C trumpet sound is something a more common thing decades ago before the gradual shift toward the Bach C / Chicago sound thing became kind of the default tone pallet for orchestral trumpet playing for a lot of orchestras.

It's shifted a little bit away from that, now - but it's still not far off.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering the prices that the AC333 and AC334 horns they made under the Courtois label a decade ago sold for, I would expect that if/when these reach the general market, it is going to be at or above the $3600 price for the B&S x-line.

It appears to be an interesting, somewhat retro, unique design relative to everything else from B&S. The valves are the same, but there are intriguingly unique mass placement and coupling decisions in this design that I would love to see how they effect the feel and response. The flat-front tuning slide, similar to Evo I & II, but not Evo III & IV is a noteworthy choice. B&S seems to be leaning toward this design element in their high-end work these days.

The 450 bore will push more of the conicity past the valves, so that should favor a more "trumpety" spectrum that, in conjunction with a tighter bell, if that is what they did, would certainly align with some of the basics for a "French sound". (though those are far from the only factors) I'm really looking forward to hearing from someone who gets to play one of these.
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sd4f
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
It appears to be an interesting, somewhat retro, unique design relative to everything else from B&S.


It seems to me, to be trying to aim for a market which probably has been underserviced. I'm getting the impression that the "jazz" trumpets probably don't sell like they once did, and now they're looking for a different market where they can differentiate themselves.

It makes sense to me, because invariably a lot of trumpets have been aiming for a more "darker" sound all the time, so I guess for repertoire which doesn't call for that, including some orchestral works, it makes some sense to differentiate yourself in that manner.
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