which of these vintage cornets is potentially loudest?

[Morifori]

(not a player)


My kid plays cornet in the school's trumpet section. She plays quietly--the perfect volume for home but not so good in the trumpet section--and has decided to get louder to be more competitive. She does not want a new cornet and really really doesn't want a trumpet.

Are some particular cornet models capable of playing louder than others? If so, which of these would be likely capable of being loudest? (I know it'll vary based on many factors but since these seem to be common models, I hope some of y'all might have experience enough for an educated guess.)

50s Holton Collegiate
50s Conn 80A
40s King Master Model EDIT: it's a late 30s model, not 40s.

She currently switches between the Holton and Conn but would be willing to give the King a try (I think it has the best tone, too.). They're all in good functional condition.

The kid has tested them all for volume and they all sound equally quiet when she plays. She wants to focus on one and learn to play it well and make it loud. Any clear choice for potential loudness here? Or is it a silly question and they're all the same or too variable to guess?

Thanks!

[Andy Cooper]

What mouthpiece is she using with the cornets?

It's not really just about being "louder" but creating a sound that projects over the band.

It's sort of related to the "singer's format" - scroll down to "The Physics of Opera Singers"
https://issuu.com/bostonlyricopera/docs/giulio_cesare_r3_page/s/10637295

I can play with reasonable success in a trumpet section using a Conn 80A with a shallow cup and tight backbore. It's still easier to just use a trumpet and save the cornet for solos using a deeper cup and larger backbore.

She should at least try something like a Getzen Eterna Classic trumpet to see what a difference it would make in her sound.

[nieuwguyski]

If they're all in fundamentally good, playable condition, as you stated they are, none of those cornets is intrinsically limited as far as volume goes. The fact that they're all equally quiet when your daughter plays them simply means that she's playing quietly.

If we limit the conversation to the cornets you own, the problem you're describing is 99% mental and 1% metal. I don't know how else to say it, other than your daughter simply needs to practice playing louder.

Since you mention the quiet volume she plays at is "the perfect volume for home," is she discouraged from playing loud at home? Do you live in an apartment? Is the room she practices in particularly small?

Band instruments have evolved since your cornets were designed and built and instruments have gotten more efficient and thus louder. I really do like to play cornet and would use one more often, but many times when competing with a loud section of only trumpets it feels like I've brought a knife to a gun fight.
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[krax]

The King Master if it's the medium bore model.

Not that it is louder, but its tone doesn't get drowned as much by the band. The collegiate would be the worst and the Conn - - as mentioned - is very mouthpiece sensitive.

[tptptp]

[Andy Cooper]

[Irving]

She should switch to trumpet, at least in the band. Otherwise she will always be at a disadvantage. A section of trumpets will be hard to compete with. She might not want to switch just because she isn't used to playing the trumpet. If she is really small then the trumpet might be uncomfortable. If not, the she should start playing the trumpet, and play cornet at home or in other situations.

If she always plays and practices softly then she will have to start doing more loud practice. This is fundamental. It requires more exertion, so I would encourage her to do more loud practicing. Not all the time, just a little at a time.

[Dale Proctor]

I found that the Conn short cornets from the 1960s (Director, Connquest, Victors, and Connstellation) are capable of good projection and extreme loudness if played that way. I’d guess it has something to do with the huge bores. The key is “if played that way”. She needs to practice playing loudly on a mouthpiece that isn’t too restrictive.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[Morifori]

Thanks all. Apologies for the length.





I'll definitely have the kid read the opera article. Good stuff (and she's a physics nerd)!



The Quiet Problem is definitely the player. She knows it. She is a quiet person. She is determined to work hard on playing louder and wants to really work on it with whatever instrument has the biggest possible payoff, if any. Well, not whatever instrument it takes which would be a trumpet.

She should absolutely switch to trumpet. She doesn't want to. She has also rejected the concept of a new cornet. I am willing to buy either. Or both! Good ones, even. This kid can't be bribed or tricked. (She chooses to play cruddy old cornets and could have a quality new instrument at any time. Part of it is that she can play these in tune without moving slides--she has no experience with that. Part of it is preference for the shape and sound and, yes, uniqueness.)

I do think that a trumpet is less comfortable to play for a small person like my kid and she isn't going to get any taller. The Conn is definitely less comfy for her than the Holton. It's much heavier as well as longer. But it's not like she'd be marching with it. That was the Holton's job. And unless she takes it up in college, she's done marching.



We don't ask the kid to play quietly at home. It's just her nature. We've been reminding her to play louder. We're probably terrible neighbors (but that would be due to my other kid whose piano lid keeps opening up no matter how often I close it).



The King Master is a medium bore. Interesting that it might get less drowned out. It has the most lyrical sound of the three and sounds the least trumpety. Of course, this kid does not play anything with a trumpety sound.


For mouthpieces, the kid uses a Conn 4 on the Conn and the "Collegiate" on the Holton. The obvious theme here is that if it came with the instrument, it must fit. We haven't tested various mouthpieces because (1) she likes these and (2) at least we know they fit the instrument. She has said that they are similar enough to not be an issue and also doesn't like how they play swapped.

The King has a HN White "Del Staigers" 38 mouthpiece (a normal-looking one) which didn't come with the cornet but is approximately the same vintage.

Should I instead be asking which of these instruments are the easiest to find various mouthpieces for?


If I can convince my dear kid to even try out a new trumpet (or cornet) maybe she'll be convinced. In addition to the Getzen already recommended, any suggestions? Ideally something lightweight but durable. And I'll keep my eye out for a 60s era short Conn. I bet I could sell her on one of those.

I just remembered that she started out with a '71 Director (Yamaha I think?) that we still have. I don't care how loud it gets. It's not a nice sound. It stays buried.

[Andy Cooper]

https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/80
See page 25 for the Staigers 38 mouthpiece

https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArticle51.html
Conn 4 - it has a fairly large throat but the size and cup are similar to a Bach 2C

I remember the Collegiate mouthpiece to be on the small side but with a deep egg shaped cup.

These are all "cornet" mouthpieces.

Get a Bach 3C cornet mouthpiece or a Yamaha 14B long model cornet mouthpiece on trial. They should work in the Holton and King. The modern mouthpieces will probably have a little too much mouthpiece "gap" which will make them brighter sounding than you normally want for cornet. A good thing in this case. The Bach 3C or Yamaha 14B will sound will make the cornets sound more like trumpets.

If the Conn was made before 1958, then the modern mouthpieces will probably not work as well. You could have a custom mouthpiece made but that would be extra money for something you might not use.

[Dale Proctor]

[krax]

[Richard III]

[Morifori]

Thanks for the recs, Dale! Those would probably fit into the kid's concept of acceptable instruments. Are these new enough to not have the 3D puzzle valves the '50s 80A has? (Like these described so nicely at the Conn Loyalist: https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArticle36.html )

Kid thinks they are a pain to oil. I agree.


And thanks for the MP suggestions, guys!

Andy, the Conn is pre-'58 and doesn't seem to like the other MPs we have around even though the King and Holton also use short shanks. Will the modern long ones really be in tune (for the King and Holton)? Because that would sure open up fun avenues for exploration even if they don't end up helping the loudness "problem".

Krax, thanks for the info on that presumably obscure mouthpiece. It really is a pleasing sound combo. If she could make that loud, I would not object.

[Morifori]

Hahaha!

Richard III, seriously loud is the goal!

But finding one to try now, that's the hard part.

[Morifori]

A correction, in case it's relevant. The King is probably a late 30s model, not 40s.

[Andy Cooper]

[Dale Proctor]

[Morifori]

Yes those valve guides! I feel like something is going to get broken, or that things won't be oiled as often as they should because it's such a hassle. The instrument looks and plays so solid and then you pull out the piston and it looks like a handful of random parts just held together with unicorn dreams and spit.


These are just typical concert band pieces with very short solos. I'll have to ask the band director about it if I get a chance. They really do an amazing job with limited public school resources and way too many different ensembles so I can't be too critical!

[nieuwguyski]

Accepting the limitations you've given us, IMHO the best available combination is the Conn 80A with the Conn 4.

Beyond that, I'd recommend a different mouthpiece on the King, but your daughter would have to buy in to sounding like a trumpet.
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski