Seems like the same cookie cutter advice that I've heard many times. I don't see why beginners need to start on a 7C. They could start on an 8C or 6C. The 7C has a rim that can seem uncomfortable to many.
So the beginner needs to switch to a 5C and then to a 3C? Why? Not saying it might not be a good idea, but telling everybody that they need to play a 5C, when they reach a certain plateau, and then a 3C? Again, why? Maybe they are doing fine on the 8C, 7C or whatever. In that case why should they switch? Cookie cutter advice is convenient for the teacher, less so for the student.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:39 am Post subject:
Irving wrote:
Seems like the same cookie cutter advice that I've heard many times. I don't see why beginners need to start on a 7C. They could start on an 8C or 6C. The 7C has a rim that can seem uncomfortable to many.
So the beginner needs to switch to a 5C and then to a 3C? Why? Not saying it might not be a good idea, but telling everybody that they need to play a 5C, when they reach a certain plateau, and then a 3C? Again, why? Maybe they are doing fine on the 8C, 7C or whatever. In that case why should they switch? Cookie cutter advice is convenient for the teacher, less so for the student.
ABSOLUTELY agree with this.☝️
Absolutely DISAGREE with that “advice”. That mindset has been around forever among a lot of band directors, and based on my teaching experience is absolutely and wildly incorrect.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:30 pm; edited 4 times in total
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 Posts: 505 Location: North Carolina
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:07 am Post subject:
SOAP BOX ON
All I can say is….NO! This is a terrible blog article. It is precisely what my High School trumpet teacher did to me….I was playing a Conn 4, which worked pretty well…wasn’t holding me back…but my teacher told my parents to buy a Bach 3C and take the Conn 4 away…it disappeared. The 3C made me want to quit playing altogether. The Bach 3C was uncomfortable from day one and never felt any better after years of playing it, but my instructors wouldn’t let me try anything else. Fast forward 20 years. I had no instructor looking over my shoulder and finally decided I needed to try something else. I ordered several different mouthpieces from Mouthpiece Express. Most a little smaller diameter than the Bach 3C….none of them a Bach. As soon as I put the Marcinkiewicz 5 on my chops and started to play, I knew the 3C was ALWAYS the wrong mouthpiece for me. This blog is nothing but glittering generalities based on the same false assumptions being foisted upon unsuspecting students by cookie cutter teachers who can’t fathom something other than the same bad advice they were taught. Just say No!
I currently still play a Marcinkiewicz 5 as well as a 3, both being the Concert Hall blank. I’ve played with others somewhat successfully (Curry, ACB), but keep coming back to what made me want to keep playing 20 years ago.
SOAP BOX OFF _________________ Best Regards,
Greg
Edwards Gen II
P. Mauriat PMT-75 (Ti/Copper)
Conn 61B
Benge 90B
Conn 80B LB
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound....
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9008 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 9:49 am Post subject:
delano wrote:
Best advice ever? Really?
delano, in his typically tactful way, says it.
Observations:
A Schilke 11 (and Yamaha counterpart) is generally the same size as a Bach 7C but without as sharp a rim. Better for beginners.
Bach 3C is the beginners' go-to mpc. in this region.
I played professionally in wind ensembles, big bands and pop bands on mouthpieces generally in the Bach 7 range the entire time. Sometimes smaller. I guess never progressing to anything bigger means that I have to give back my union card.
Actually, I'm a little surprised at this. She certainly has the educational and street creds. https://blog.utc.edu/erika-schafer/ _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Soloist with the US Navy Band - just to get into one of the DC military bands is quite an achievement.
A weak Rate My Professor score regarding academic subjects she teaches but I don't know how significant that is - students can be whiney.
With such generic advice related to mouthpieces I have a suspicion with all her credentials she's the kind of trumpet instructor who's fine with people who don't have any particular problems - they practice, they get better - but wouldn't have been able to help me at all.
Anytime I see the word “should” in the opening portion and especially the first sentence of any trumpet mouthpiece advice article, that tells me the author most likely doesn’t know what they’re talking about. IMO their practical experience will more than likely be extremely limited, their education has been very narrow and cloistered ant they are writing purely to be “published.”
And if that is followed by anything like “after the student has been playing for a certain amount of time they ‘should’…”
That silly “should” word again.
Students who are just starting out need to be evaluated on an individual basis for what is best for them. Granted, many will be similar. But in my experience, in any group there will more than likely be at least one and possibly several who need a different approach for success.
And I could be completely wrong. The author of that article may turn out to be the next Max Schlossberg or Bill Vacchiano with their tremendous list of successful students. _________________ Tim Wendt
Students who are just starting out need to be evaluated on an individual basis for what is best for them. Granted, many will be similar. But in my experience, in any group there will more than likely be at least one and possibly several who need a different approach for success.
And I could be completely wrong. The author of that article may turn out to be the next Max Schlossberg or Bill Vacchiano with their tremendous list of successful students.
Did teachers like Schlossberg and Vacchiano ever have problem case students or did they only get students to begin with who were already strong advanced players with no real issues? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:06 pm Post subject:
Wow! I sure stirred up a hornet’s nest. Seemed like good advice but clearly a lot of very experienced people think it isn’t. Sorry if I raised your blood pressure! _________________ Jim Hatfield
people are different - what a boring world it would be otherwise. When I was first fitted to an instrument, many mouthpieces were tried to see what fit best. The beginner cannot know, the teacher should. One size fits all is a recipe for failure. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:37 am Post subject:
Mouthpieces are like shoes. You need to find out what fits you. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
The best advice I ever got was, "Don't give advice." (Unless, of course, one has anonymous access to an internet forum. ) _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:52 am Post subject:
There is nothing that connects mouthpieces with shoes.
Somebody with probably only a vague notion of the structure of mouthpieces started that comparison and still has his followers.
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1169 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:31 pm Post subject:
How about structure of embouchures?
Embouchure to mouthpiece = feet to shoes
But it's really much more about function than size.
Kind of like feet - pronation and arch have very little or nothing to do with "size" but they're all about function.
There is nothing that connects mouthpieces with shoes.
Somebody with probably only a vague notion of the structure of mouthpieces started that comparison and still has his followers.
Fitment unequivocally analogizes between mouthpieces and shoes, because fitting a mouthpiece to your lip size and underlying dentition directly analogizes to fitting a shoe to the length and width of your foot. This is true, because one can objectively measure the dimensions of physical things.
No one can logically call fitment to physical dimensions a "vague notion"; such a statement appears to champion the contrary theory of using mouthpieces that do not fit one's physiology. Inferring that any mouthpiece will fit any person . . . that's a "vague notion" with mountains of evidence to the contrary!
We intuitively choose the mouthpiece(s) that feel the most comfortable to us, because a comfortable mouthpiece will inevitably fit one's individual physiology better than an uncomfortable one.
As trumpet players we figure out which mouthpiece(s) fit our embouchure best, just as we figure out which shoes fit our feet best, because one can objectively measure fitment both in mouthpieces and in shoes. _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1169 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:21 pm Post subject:
"fitting a mouthpiece to your lip size and underlying dentition directly analogizes to fitting a shoe to the length and width of your foot"
Actually it doesn't much relate to lip size, and only slightly to the underlying dentition. Louis Armstrong would have required a trombone mouthpiece if that were true.
It's much more related to embouchure type (which most people know nothing about) and for most players it's trial and error, mostly error.
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