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Didymus Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:23 pm Post subject: Horizons |
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kehaulani wrote: | Doug Elliott wrote: | How about . . Embouchure to mouthpiece = feet to shoes
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And they both use tongues. |
LOL. _________________ Enjoy the journey. |
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RussellDDixon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2014 Posts: 830 Location: Mason, OH
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Same Old Mouthpiece Paradigm. Individuals physical make-up and physiology is just that ... individual. What fits perfect for one will not fit perfect for another. That's why there are different sizes of mouthpieces, shirts, pants, shoes ad nauseum _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Lynn Nicholson Model Monette Prana XLT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
Last edited by RussellDDixon on Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:09 am Post subject: |
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The problem with the shoes analogy is that it assumes some direct physical connection between the player and the diameter of the mouthpiece. Maybe such a connection exist but for the moment being we don't know which parameters to measure let alone judge them.
And even when after some development we are able to understand such a connection it will not help. Why?
Because the physical shape of the player is just one factor in choosing a mouthpiece. I know plenty of players who don't play the mouthpiece that plays easiest but they play the mouthpiece that fits the best in their job (sound, range, projection). Let's say, just a little bit harder work for a better result.
To give an example, I think that the right diameter of a mouthpiece for Cat Anderson would be in the Bach 1 to 1 1/4 range. But his function in the Duke Ellington Orchestra made that he played something at the other side of the mouthpiece range spectrum.
And then we only talk about diameter sec, after that we have to discuss cup shape, cup depth, rim form and more for we land on the right mouthpiece size. And what are we going to do with the measured parameters for different instruments: trombone, tuba mouthpieces? Did we measure them also or do we have to start all over again?
Shortly: mouthpiece size determination is so complicated that it's not fair to compare it with shoe sizes, T-shirt size, blue jean size and so on. It's only a very rough simplification with no practical use. |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1884
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:29 am Post subject: |
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My teacher used to use the shoe analogy. When you are trying on shoes, you already have an idea of your size more or less. If you try on a pair, and they don't feel comfortable, then they are not for you, even though you might like them. Comfort comes first. Same with a mouthpiece. If it feels uncomfortable, then don't use it. With all of the mouthpieces out there you can find one that is comfortable. If no mouthpiece is comfortable, then son, you've got a problem. Granted amouthpiece might feel comfortable at first, and then you realize that it isn't for you. But if it feels bad right away, then keep looking. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:49 am Post subject: |
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So the analogy is about ‘feeling comfortable’?
Like you said, you have an idea of the size, if the mp feels nevertheless still uncomfortable it can’t be the size. BTW a mp can feel uncomfortable by a lot of reasons. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2611 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | I know plenty of players who don't play the mouthpiece that plays easiest but they play the mouthpiece that fits the best in their job (sound, range, projection). |
Also, in general, mouthpieces are never uncomfortable. Your approach to that mouthpiece may be wrong at that moment. After adapting, it becomes comfortable. We tend to think of finding mouthpieces to adapt to our approach, when really the above quote says it all. It is the best mouthpiece for the job and then we adapt and make it work. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1862 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:12 am Post subject: |
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I get the sense that the aptness of the shoe analogy depends upon the level of detail to which you take it. At a high level, it makes some sense, but if you dive into certain details, it doesn't work as well. From Delano's point of view, the level at which it works is "only a very rough simplification with no practical use." YMMV, as they say.
"The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad / For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad." —G.K. Chesterton. Happy St. Patrick's Day! _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1862 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | Also, in general, mouthpieces are never uncomfortable. |
I respectfully submit that this mouthpiece, specifically at least, is uncomfortable:
_________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10202 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Man oh man, do I ever gret starting this thread. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1862 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:38 am Post subject: |
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jhatpro wrote: | Man oh man, do I ever gret starting this thread. |
You know what they say -- "If the shoe fits . . ." _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 956 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:58 am Post subject: |
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I always took the shoe analogy as ‘people are different and what works for one person may not work for another’, and not much more than that. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:09 am Post subject: |
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But you can say that, the shoe analogy makes that not easier or better understandable. |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1862 Location: WI
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:45 am Post subject: |
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OMG OMG OMG! I just got the insight of a lifetime!
In Holland, if the shoe analogy works at all, it only works for wooden mouthpieces. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 956 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Halflip wrote: | OMG OMG OMG! I just got the insight of a lifetime!
In Holland, if the shoe analogy works at all, it only works for wooden mouthpieces. |
Dude, that’s terrible _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1862 Location: WI
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:54 am Post subject: |
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stuartissimo wrote: | Halflip wrote: | OMG OMG OMG! I just got the insight of a lifetime!
In Holland, if the shoe analogy works at all, it only works for wooden mouthpieces. |
Dude, that’s terrible |
_________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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jhatpro wrote: | Man oh man, do I ever gret starting this thread. |
Isn't TH fun, Jim?! |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10202 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Usually. 😊 _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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