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lukas_conrad New Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2023 Posts: 1 Location: Woodland Hills, CA
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:50 am Post subject: How do I get a fuller sound on Flugelhorn? |
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Compared to my trumpet sound, my flugelhorn sound is extremely thin. Not sure if it’s the horn (used and decently older school horn) or if it’s me. _________________ Lukas Conrad |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1954
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:04 am Post subject: Flugel sound |
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Flugelhorn is a personal instrument in that the sound you're after depends on what context you will be playing it in. With the work I've done playing many shows here in Las Vegas, invariably you picked up the flugel cold and had unisons with flutes. I opted for a medium depth mouthpiece which gave me more intonation control. You will obviously hear from some "deeper is better" advocates saying that is the way to a fuller sound. That's true to a point and that point is top line G. After that pitch is shaky. If you're playing in a jazz situation and play deeper mouthpieces, you are in control as to the range you play in. Some will say flugelhorn shouldn't be played above the staff but I was playing with Don Menza's big band and the 1st part had me on C's and D's above the staff and Don is a very good arranger. Compromise with the size you choose.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Hate to follow "The Master's" post but I'll just add that I would get another good Flugelhorn player to play your horn and listen to how it sounds. If the sound is still thin, then it's the horn. If not . .
In that case, I would be listening to your favourite Flugelhorn player and keep trying for that sound. Don't mix the sounds up. One sound.
It could also be that, from trumpet, you're playing with too tight an embouchure. Relax more.
And . . Long Tones. Don't just play them. Concentrate on them. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1529 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:42 am Post subject: How do I get a fuller sound on flugelhorn |
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Hello all.
Lucas says that he wonders why he has a thinner sound on flugel than his trumpet. When I sit and play my trumpet, cornet and flugel in the same session, I often ask myself how I can describe the three different timbres. Sometimes after playing cornet, I say to myself, that would be a beautiful flugel sound, then I play my flugel. The flugel has such, what I call, a hollow sound, and the cornet, which is so warm, is so different.
I think that the playing of those two or three different instruments is a matter of perspective and how long you have been accustomed to them. The ear needs to understand the difference between timbres. Without knowing what brand of flugel, what mouthpiece...The best thing to do is to record your playing and hear what the instrument sounds in front of the bell. "Thin," may take on a different meaning.
Also bear in mind that many flugels have a smaller bore/funnel mp, and there may be a conflict of approach that you are feeling when you play the flugel versus trumpet. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7003 Location: AZ
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:43 am Post subject: |
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There is a lot of difference between various flugelhorn. We spend all kinds of time talking about the difference between trumpets, but I think there is a greater variation between flugelhorn. That said, the biggest difference is how one plays flugelhorn, as opposed to trumpet.
When I started playing my first flugelhorn, it took about 18 months of experimenting to arrive at a decent approach to the horn. Then, it took more exploring to discover just how much change happens when a different mouthpiece is used; answer = a LOT!
Finally, I learned how different a French taper mouthpiece setup is to the usual Small or Large Morse.
As kehaulani wrote, it is important to listen to flugelhorn players that have the kind of sound you want. If you do what they do, you'll get what they get, essentially.
My guess is that your trumpet sound is also thin, but because it's a trumpet and you're used to the sound you make with it, it's easy to overlook that. I suggest that you find some sort of space that resonates enough that you can hear the sound you're making coming back to you from the room. Play your trumpet and get used to your sound from this perspective. Adjust the tone quality to reflect what you thought you sound like. I bet you will be surprised at what you hear.
Then, take your flugelhorn into that same space and listen to your tone. See what you can do with your embouchure to improve it. Start at mezzo piano and see how little air it takes to get the flugelhorn to sound. Slowly take the volume up and correlate the effort needed to get to a forte-level dynamic. It likely will be much less than you thought.
Open up your mouth cavity as much as possible, slow down your airflow. Try to take a tone down to a whisper until it fades out smoothly, then fade the tone back in smoothly in one breath. Can you control it? Find a way to master that. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 1990 Location: USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Do you have the proper taper mouthpiece for your model of flugelhorn? If you aren't sure, check out this helpful guide from Bob Reeves:
https://bobreeves.com/blog/the-ultimate-flugelhorn-mouthpiece-shank-guide/
In many cases, you can fit a mouthpiece with the incorrect type of flugehorn taper into your flugelhorn, but your sound will suffer.
If you have the proper taper mouthpiece (and a flugelhorn-type cup), and your flugelhorn is in good repair, then it is likely your approach to playing the flugelhorn. You've already received some helpful advice on that front.
Good luck! |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1008 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:20 am Post subject: |
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It has already been mentioned, but the easiest and perhaps the most effective way to change your sound is the mouthpiece. Tell us specifically what you are using for both the mouthpiece and the flugelhorn. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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ConnArtist Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2008 Posts: 2810 Location: La-la Land (corner of 13th and 13th)
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Just tossing other thoughts, on the tail of already great insights from already great players and experts…
But “thin” can mean different things to different people… are you referring to volume/loudness/projection, or more tone or timbre?
I’ll toss other thoughts out there that I didn’t notice already mentioned… the power of “backing off”… what bore is your flugelhorn? I think a lot of trumpet players approach flugelhorn like the trumpet and overblow, thus getting a lot of back pressure.
It would be good to know what bore/model you play on. As already mentioned, mpc has a HUGE impact on both timbre and volume.
Other thought I have on thin timbre is the power of YOU as the instrument. When I want a fat sound, I also open the jaw and back of the mouth/throat. You can even selectively enhance overtones using your mouth and throat as a part of the total instrument. Just some thoughts… _________________ "Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML
Last edited by ConnArtist on Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3275 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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ConnArtist wrote: | ...
Other thought I have on thin timbre is the power of YOU as the instrument. When I want a fat sound, I also open the jaw and back of the mouth/throat. You can even selectively enhance overtones using your mouth and throat as a part of the total instrument. Just some thoughts… |
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I agree that your 'sound concept' needs to be different on flugel than trumpet. Perhaps try getting a more 'French horn' sound - try to get the sound to 'fill the room' than to 'project it' in a linear manner.
Flugel might be shaped somewhat like a trumpet, but it needs its own 'approach' to get the best 'warm & rich' tone. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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ConnArtist Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2008 Posts: 2810 Location: La-la Land (corner of 13th and 13th)
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Whoops... and now than I am on a computer and not a mobile with tiny screen (and thus easier to read rather than skim), I see that shofarguy actually DID address the points I made... and with instructions on HOW you can identify for yourself where the sweet spot is due to the factors I mentioned. Follow his well-explained instructions, and you will likely find valuable insights into how exactly to get the fuller sound you seek! _________________ "Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1008 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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It will be interesting to read the reactions by the original poster. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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