• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

C Piccolo Trumpet



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jon Kaplan
Veteran Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 299
Location: Charlotte, NC

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:48 pm    Post subject: C Piccolo Trumpet Reply with quote

Hey everyone!

I hope you are all having a wonderful spring! In the video I released today, I talk about the C piccolo trumpet. I tried to cover a lot of different angles, but I'm curious to see what you all think about the subject and if you have anything to add to the discussion! Here are the angles I approached it from -

It seems that C piccolo trumpets are really mostly useful for playing the Brandenburg concerto, and not much else. There are a variety of ways C piccolos can help make the Brandenburg easier - puts it in F major, helps with some trills, better high concert G, and the herald style belled C piccolos move the bell further away which can give you a better sense of balance with the other soloists.

Here are links to 4 performances where the soloist is using a C piccolo trumpet so you can see and compare for yourself -
Reinhold Friedrich - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_1jmoSvOBs
Edward Tarr - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1MuId9VxjA
David Washburn - https://youtu.be/zW5t1n7ANtc?t=1403
Caleb Hudson - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek0nOlWJZPI

The biggest downside the C piccolo trumpet is that they have very few uses outside of this one piece. Maybe for a few orchestra excerpts like the picc parts in Bolero or the end of Petrouchka, but Bb picc might work just as well for those. While researching for this video, I corresponded with Mr. Ray Mase and asked him a bunch of questions about C piccs, including if he had found other occasions to use a C picc *besides* Brandenburg 2, and he said -

"Not frequently, but I used it on a few contemporary pieces that were just easier to manage than on Bb or A. Also used it on a jingle for Liberty Coins which were issued for the Statue of Liberty renovation and rededication in 1985."

Of course, I immediately set out to find this ad if it still existed and - within minutes - YouTube satisfied. Here is the ad, you can hear Mr. Mase sounding gorgeous on C picc closest to the end.


Link


Also playing in tune on C picc is hard. Lots of soloists use 1+4 for low C since it is such a wide note, as well as a variety of others.

The other thing I talk about is all the different C piccolos available on the market, including -

Yamaha 918, 991, and 9910 C Piccolos
Schilke C5-4 C Piccolo
Egger/Galileo C Piccolo - designed with Reinhold Friedrich!
Spada C Piccolo
Scherzer 8110 C Piccolo
Thein Piston AND Rotary C Piccolos
Kromat C Piccolo - the only 3+1 valve configuration of the bunch

Anyway, I'm very interested to see if I missed anything - I'm always inspired by the depth of knowledge in this community! Here is the video if you feel like checking it out.


Link

_________________
2nd Trumpet, Charlotte Symphony Orchestra
2nd Trumpet, Central City Opera Orchestra
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Christian K. Peters
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Nov 2001
Posts: 1529
Location: Eugene, Oregon

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:58 pm    Post subject: C piccolo Reply with quote

Hello,
I would love to have a C pic. I realize that it would be great for the Bach pieces, but they are just out of my reach. I run into Brass group arrangements that seem would be appropriate for that horn...Bb or A side seem to have an awkward trill, but a C horn would make it easier. If I had a C pic, I would use it in church at least twice a year for convenience. There lies the reality of thousands of dollars sitting in the closet most of the time...For me. I already have too many horns that sit.
_________________
Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Brassnose
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 2020
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Berndt C Meyer in Dresden builds rotary C piccs as well.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Klier, Curry
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scott1860
Regular Member


Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 51
Location: nashville

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon, I really enjoyed the video, as I do your other videos. I especially loved the mouthpiece break-ups episode. Please keep them coming!
_________________
-scott
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shark01
Veteran Member


Joined: 10 Jun 2017
Posts: 275

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not having seen the video, I can think of many solo or ensemble pieces where a C Piccolo would be useful from an efficiency standpoint. Many pieces I play go up to a D on a C trumpet and quite frankly, my range can only accommodate that for a 10-15 minute interval during a session. Towards the end of a session even a high C goes away.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cbtj51
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2015
Posts: 722
Location: SE US

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scott1860 wrote:
Jon, I really enjoyed the video, as I do your other videos. I especially loved the mouthpiece break-ups episode. Please keep them coming!


+1 I really enjoy your videos and look forward to new presentations!

Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheiden
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8910
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jens Lindemann talks about using the Yamaha YTR 9910 as well.

I found this quote online.
"The last model in the 3rd generation of “Custom” model piccolos is the YTR-9910. The YTR-9910 replaced the YTR-991 but was the final flowering of the piccolos pitched in high C for Yamaha. It was produced in limited numbers for one year only in 1982. The YTR-9910 was different from its earlier models in that the leadpipe was straight and featured a tuning leadpipe, rather than dropping down in a curve. It also differed in that it was supplied with bell adaptors to allow it to play in the keys of C. Bb and A, unlike the earlier one which were only pitched in C. "

https://sites.google.com/site/yamahacollectoryamahaloyalist/articles/yamaha-piccolo-trumpets
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
patdublc
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 1049
Location: Salisbury, MD

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fun topic. I had my hands on both an older Yamaha and a Scherzer for a while. Then, I bought a used Blackburn. There weren't many Blackburn C piccs made and somebody who collects and plays wanted it really bad so I finally sold it to him. And, what did I do, turn right around and buy a Schilke C5-4.
Each horn has its own merits and challenges. In total, I think I find the Schilke the easiest to play but intonation was easier on the the Blackburn.
It's definitely a specialty horn that isn't needed everyday.
_________________
Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cgaiii
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1541
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicely Done video
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jon Kaplan
Veteran Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 299
Location: Charlotte, NC

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christian K. Peters wrote:
I would love to have a C pic. I realize that it would be great for the Bach pieces, but they are just out of my reach. I run into Brass group arrangements that seem would be appropriate for that horn...Bb or A side seem to have an awkward trill, but a C horn would make it easier. If I had a C pic, I would use it in church at least twice a year for convenience. There lies the reality of thousands of dollars sitting in the closet most of the time...For me. I already have too many horns that sit.


Yeah, it definitely falls into the category of mostly sitting in it's case - but then once in a while it could really save your butt potentially (like the studio thing Ray Mase recorded that I referenced earlier). That said, I definitely don't need 2, and will sell one of my Yamaha C piccs fairly soon.

Brassnose wrote:
Berndt C Meyer in Dresden builds rotary C piccs as well.


Oh, excellent! I knew I couldn't have found *all* of them. You're right though, you can even see it on their website.

http://www.hm-trompeten.de/me/me_dt.htm

scott1860 wrote:
Jon, I really enjoyed the video, as I do your other videos. I especially loved the mouthpiece break-ups episode. Please keep them coming!


Aww, thanks! I really enjoy making them and I'm glad that you also enjoy watching them.
_________________
2nd Trumpet, Charlotte Symphony Orchestra
2nd Trumpet, Central City Opera Orchestra
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 666
Location: Sao Paulo, Brazil

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great video, Jon!

I had the chance to play for week on a Yamaha 9910. It was really nice that I could compare with a Schilke P5-4 that I had at that time.

Bad part of the 9910:
The 9910 was even less free blowing than the P5-4
The upper register was even harder (at least to me)
Low C was a problem... I used 1+4 like you said.
Intonation was wild LOL

Good part of the 9910:
The 9910 has a beautiful sound!
Trills were much easier on the C piccolo
Great accuracy

It was funny because concert high G was easier on the Bb side of the 9910, and very hard on the C side...

PS. Now I have a P7-4 that is more free blowing. At least to me it's much easier than the P5-4
_________________
Robson Adabo de Mello

1 Corinthians 14:8 (KJV)
"For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pierre+6isjra24@demartine
New Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2023
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: C Piccolo Trumpet Reply with quote

I was looking at the beautiful videos in the links posted by @JonKaplan, and it brought a very bittersweet feeling.

My house was broken into in May 2022 while we were on vacations. As part of the $50K+ of stuff that was stolen, there was my entire collection of trumpets (except for a piccolo I was traveling with, which escaped the carnage).

As part of that collection, I had a beloved Yamaha YTR-9910, which I used from time to time for the Brandenburg, but also for a bunch of other pieces that I was finding easier with the C piccolo (Vivaldi concerto for two trumpets, Albinoni Concerto a Cinque, etc.). The sound was just strikingly beautiful. Sharp, clear, extremely bright.

For those of you wanting some pics, here are a couple:





Of course, if anyone sees a YTR-9910 for sale, please let me know!

I've started "rebuilding the herd", but it's quite slow going. It took months to get a new Stradivarius in C. And more months for a Bach 189 (apparently they now make them by order only). I might not replace some of the other trumpets, as I was playing them quite rarely. But trying to get a new YTR-9910 is proving near impossible.

Any advice? (Or another piccolo in C)?

Jon Kaplan wrote:
Hey everyone!

I hope you are all having a wonderful spring! In the video I released today, I talk about the C piccolo trumpet.

(...)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mr oakmount
Veteran Member


Joined: 10 Jun 2022
Posts: 147
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is really sad to hear about you losing your trumpet collection like that.
Good luck with "rebuilding the herd"!

As for C-Piccolos, if you cannot get one or do not want to pay an extravagant sum for it, how about a budget G?

I was looking for a "high" trumpet for the C-Major stuff (Vivaldi, some Bach, Handel, Eberlin and maybe even Mozart Masses). In the end I found a used Yamaha YTR-6810 Piccolo and had my trumpet builder/repair tech convert it to the key of G. He did so by adding a standard tuning slide (where it would be on a “big” Bb), which seemed to improve the tone stability and sound as well. We did not want to cut off and replace the 2nd valve loop, so the notes a and e are quite sharp with valves 1+2, but since 99% percent of the music played would be in concert pitch C Major (F Major on the trumpet), we set the third slide to be a perfectly tuned a/e. The b and c# even seem to benefit from the shorter loop.

I don't think this setup would work for Brandenburg 2, but then I'll never play that for lack of range (and I still think it's a horn part anyway ... would make so much more musical sense to me).

In the end this cost me about EUR 1500,- (used trumpet + conversion, I chose not to re-lacquer or plate). The sound is still bright, but never piercing and mixes well with a C Trumpet on 2nd.

I am trying to set a link to a “before” and an “after” photo and a sound clip. You may have to copy and paste it to your browser.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlP2TsqoijARj2Y_yMMvOjaehAIU?e=5BIAcP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group