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Toothpaste Valve Lapping


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trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets wrote:
trickg wrote:

Let's look at something else. Stainless steel is roughly the same hardness as tooth enamel, and monel is harder than stainless steel.


Monel softens when made in to a piston because of the brazing of the port liners.

The wear we see in loose valves is typically in the casing, not the piston because the harder piston metal wears the casing. Toothpaste is removing material from the casing more than it is the piston.

Either way, I doubt if the little bit of cleaning I did with it the other day damaged my valves.
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derekthor
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Joined: 01 Oct 2012
Posts: 480
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
derekthor wrote:
Oil your valves and give your trumpet a bath every couple months and you won’t have to worry about mineral deposits.

Oh gee - I hadn't thought of that.

In 41 years of playing, this is the only trumpet where I've had any kind of an issue with a valve, and I 100% attribute it to neglect - I mentioned in the first post of this thread that I tossed it in the case in lieu of playing the Shires the National Guard band issued to me and it sat there for a good bit before I pulled it back out.

You know, this is the second thread recently where someone - well-meaning I'm sure - has decided they were going to set me straight, as if I didn't already know. Seriously? Like I don't know about cleaning a horn and oiling the valves? I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I'm not that obtuse - especially not with the experience I have as a player.

Just because I'm relating information regarding an issue doesn't mean I don't know what probably caused the issue, or steps to take which can either fix it, or may have avoided it.


Sorry not sorry.

I've done enough professional repair to have realized that just because someone has been playing their instrument for a long time, doesn't mean that they know how to properly care for their instrument or how to correctly diagnose issues - regardless of the level of their playing (this includes members of major orchestras).

You probably didn't do much damage to your instrument this one time, but if, as you said in your first post, that this is going to be your first resort whenever you have valve problems you certainly run that risk. You're removing material that can't be replaced, especially since contrary to another one of your posts, tooth enamel is significantly harder than brass. On the Mohs scale of hardness, enamel is a 5 and brass is a 3. For context, steel is a 4. Abrasiveness of toothpaste seems to be measured differently than other products such as sandpaper, but after a little bit of googling the best equivalent I could find is that on average it's roughly equivalent to 600-grit sandpaper. In other words, yikes! Lapping compound used by techs at least breaks down finer and finer as it's used.

Why do I care? Because impressionable students use this site, as do parents who have little to no clue about proper maintenance. When a valve sticks, especially on an instrument owned by a young student, there are so many possibilities as to what is causing it: dirt, stress on the casings from slides or bell out of alignment, dents in the casing (not always visible from the outside), bent or warped valves. The list goes on. The kid or parent reads a thread like this, finds what sounds like an easy DIY fix, and goes to town on their valves ruining their instrument. I can only assume that when Mr. Schilke and Mr. Scodwell bring up toothpaste they're at least assuming that whichever horn is having issues is owned by a responsible adult who probably didn't tip their horn over or drop a valve while oiling. They also don't say how much lapping is too much. No one on here has.

What could have been done differently? I'd first start by wiping the pistons and the casing with naphtha. If that doesn't work, and you really want to keep going, you can actually do a safe, mini chem clean at home with citric acid dissolved in water (hotter water will speed up the process but of course don't put lacquered parts in). I can't remember the exact ratio I used but I did it in a small tupperware container so it's not like I needed a ton. I was also fine putting my bare hand in the solution. Rinse well, maybe use soapy water if you're worried about neutralizing the acid, then if that doesn't work get thee to a tech.
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12647
Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

derekthor wrote:
Why do I care? Because impressionable students use this site, as do parents who have little to no clue about proper maintenance.

Ignoring the points being debated in this thread these are words to live by.

I worried about the posts by a former member’s, whose user name was out of this world, posts that were a mix of good, bad and unsupported facts and advice.

I worried about the pro who advised levering the piston while moving or up and down to solve a valve issue. That opinion earned me the ire of said pro here on TH.
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