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Noisy Valves Olds Special 1947



 
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dhasker
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Joined: 12 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:23 pm    Post subject: Noisy Valves Olds Special 1947 Reply with quote

Hi There

I've recently picked up a Olds Special (around 1947 vintage) and it's history is unclear. All the valves and tuning slides have matching serial numbers and it appears all original.

Horn has just a little compression left and the valves are smooth, fast and it plays great.

One problem is that the valves are noisy. Noisy at the bottom when depressed and again at the top, like the rattle you get when your valve caps are not tightened. I've had the horn to a local tech and he replaced the valve springs and that reduced the noise maybe 10%. While at the shop we momentarily had the first valve rotated 180° (incorrectly obviously) and the noise went away. I suspect what is causing the noise is bottom brass ring that has flanges that fit into the notches on the valve casing.

Does anyone have experience with this issue and what the potential solution might be?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/198034697@N08/52771138628/in/shares-h9b8UvTtTG/
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did your repair tech change out the felts under the valve caps or check the valve alignment? The valve guide shouldn't touch the piston when the top caps are screwed into the trumpet, but if the upstroke washer is too thin, it will. Olds trumpets from that era usually had a (roughly) 1/4" cork barrel and a felt underneath the top cap, quite a bit of padding for the upstroke. It's possible there is no cork barrel and just the felt.
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derekthor
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the valves have little compression left, maybe a thicker oil?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd start by trying heavier oil - e.g. drug store Mineral Oil (clear and unscented, NOT Baby Oil). The Mineral oil will probably be too heavy for good valve action, just add your regular oil to each piston drop-by-drop to get the desired valve action. Straight Mineral oil can also be good on the slides, if they are not loose.

Do a 'rough test' of valve alignment by concentrating on the 'sound quality' of all the various valve combinations. If some combinations are obviously inferior, that could indicate an alignment problem with that position.

With 'no valves / open' each valve has an IN port and an OUT port.
When a valve is down there's the IN port, TOslide, OUTslide, and OUT port.

My view is that trying to judge by a single port can be useful for 'basic alignment', but 'best alignment' can require attentive play testing and tweaking to find the 'just right' alignment.
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dhasker
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
Did your repair tech change out the felts under the valve caps or check the valve alignment? The valve guide shouldn't touch the piston when the top caps are screwed into the trumpet, but if the upstroke washer is too thin, it will. Olds trumpets from that era usually had a (roughly) 1/4" cork barrel and a felt underneath the top cap, quite a bit of padding for the upstroke. It's possible there is no cork barrel and just the felt.


The tech did not change anything other than the springs and did not check valve alignment.

Based on your suggestion, I borrowed felts from my old Getzen and added to the existing top felt and voila! Silence. Perfect smooth, fast silent Olds valves.

Before:
https://flic.kr/p/2ope5XQ

After:
https://flic.kr/p/2opdboT


THANK YOU!
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benlewis
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Joined: 21 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you solved your problem. I have a nice Olds Super with very noisy valves; plus, the valves are way out of alignment. So I have sent the horn to Jake Hoskins at Bájoc Music. He believes it will be an easy process to adapt his valve guide system for the older Olds valves. I’ll report back in a new thread once I get the horn back…

Ben
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to see the problem was fixed. Can understand how it would be annoying. Fortunately neither my Recording nor my Super cornet have excessive valve noise issues, but a player who often sits next to me has a Yamaha with valves that sound like a skeleton falling bits down a flight of stairs. He also tends to move his valves during breaks. I don't blame him for it, but I'm seriously considering buying him a set of felts...
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dhasker
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
I'd start by trying heavier oil - e.g. drug store Mineral Oil (clear and unscented, NOT Baby Oil). The Mineral oil will probably be too heavy for good valve action, just add your regular oil to each piston drop-by-drop to get the desired valve action. Straight Mineral oil can also be good on the slides, if they are not loose.

Do a 'rough test' of valve alignment by concentrating on the 'sound quality' of all the various valve combinations. If some combinations are obviously inferior, that could indicate an alignment problem with that position.

With 'no valves / open' each valve has an IN port and an OUT port.
When a valve is down there's the IN port, TOslide, OUTslide, and OUT port.

My view is that trying to judge by a single port can be useful for 'basic alignment', but 'best alignment' can require attentive play testing and tweaking to find the 'just right' alignment.


I will try adding a drop of mineral oil to my oiling routine. I currently use the original T2 oil.

My uneducated thought on valve alignment is: "Does the valve sit at the correct depth open or fully depressed? This effects centering and slotting of notes." I would have no idea how to adjust.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olds used cork with a thin green felt over it on the valve stem. You can remove the third slide and with a flashlight, see how the second valve port lines up.
Just depress the third valve to see in there.
Often times the cork is too thick and needs thinning slightly. Once you get that right, just get the other two valve stems adjusted with cork and/or felt to the same height on the upstroke as the second valve, and you'll be close enough.
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