Why can't I play certain mouthpieces?

[TriumphantTrumpeter]

Just wondering if anyone can explain why, when I have tried some mouthpieces such as shallow Bach trumpet and Cornet mouthpieces and Rudy Muck mouthpieces I can barely play a note with them and it's often muffled and unpleasant sounding.

I do note that the one's I struggle with are fairly shallow - might that be why I struggle with them.

Not a problem just something I find myself wondering about.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet

[Musechaser]

I'm no expert, I have no idea, really, but the answer is probably "everybody's different."

My own trumpet-playing arc began in Jr. High school. Dad led an incredible big band made up primarily of NYC theater players and seriously working cats. I was a violinist at that time (and still am), but always more enthused about jazz piano playing and worked hard at that, too. However, exposed to all that exciting big band stuff, seeing Maynard live a few times, and meeting a bunch of the monsters on Dad's band, I knew I just had to play screech trumpet.. so I taught myself on a beater loaned by a kind band director at school and a 10 1/2C. By 10th grade, I had a pretty reliable F/F#, and an occasional G. The problem was... I could barely make a sound below third space C, and had absolutely zero flexibility or tone.

Fast forward to my mid-20s, post college degrees in violin. Got a little more serious about wanting to play correctly. Bought a new King 601 when they first came out, and one of the trumpet profs at the college where I did some adjunct work laid a bathtub of a mouthpiece on me (gold plated Monette B11). Eurkeka! I could play on and below the staff, and actually lip slur a little bit. Trouble was, I had NO endurance with it (mostly because I wasn't exactly a "practicer" back then... available time went to piano and vioin) and couldn't play much above a Bb above the staff. Still, I sound much better on it and stuck with it for a couple years. Even started playing some area HS musical shows for fun, but always kept a Giardinelli 7C in my pocket for emergencies (West Side Story trpt 2 book, I'm looking at YOU....).

Raising a family, teaching orchestra in public school, adjunct college work, and lots of gigging got in the way for another couple decades.... fast forward...

I retire from teaching, start playing even more gigs, and start getting more serious about trumpet again. Then, Covid hits and, thanks to the powers that be in NYS. I all of a sudden have a TON of time on my hands, so I started practicing trumpet regularly and intelligently for really the first time in my life. Get together with two good friends who are top notch all around players who like to play duets with me because I'm a good reader, and they forgive my relatively terrible trumpet playing. One lays a Schilke 14C2 on me, and that becomes my new favorite. Smaller than the Monette, slightly curved rim for flexibility, but big enough that I can still make sound with my still developing embouchure throughout the bottom range. Improvements continue, but I still tire frequently and find myself cutting a little bit. Too much pressure combined with the C2 rim. Switch to a Schilke 14 for another year or so, and really starting to feel much better. Can play longer, good flexibility, and warming up to a solid E, with occasional forays up to G# or A on really good days.

Buddy recommended a switch again to what he plays... a Bach 3C. My wife got me one for Christmas this year. I played it for a couple days, then put it back in the case and went back to my Schilke 14. Hated it.. felt small and stuffy. Still, my friend said to give it a chance, so I did. It's all I've been playing since mid January, and I'm loving it now.

Why? I think because I'm still learning how to focus everything, and the more focused things get, the less one needs a big mouthpiece to make allowances for discrepancies in setup. Even a 3C, as small as it still sort of can feel to me, is a pretty big mouthpiece compared to many. I've noticed I can now play smaller mouthpieces than I've been able to play since HS (I'm 62 now), the Giardinelli doesn't feel so tiny, etc.

I guess I'm thinking that a small mouthpiece can either be a crutch for high notes to young/inexperienced players, or a very useful tool in the hands of a very fine player who has already developed a laser-focused embouchure and airstream. Right now I'm neither, but I think smaller mouthpieces can show you where you're working too hard, and won't forgive you for bad technique.

What do I know... I'm a violin-playing jazz pianist.

[TriumphantTrumpeter]

The curious thing is that I have a range of pieces from the largest, a Denis Wick 1W all the way down to a tiny, nut pretty deep, old Cosicup which is marked as Hawkes and Sons so I reckon that puts it in the 1920's at the latest and I can play all of them within my a yet fairly narrow, but developing range except for the shallow Bach's and Rudy Muck pieces. No matter how I adjust my mouth or my breathing I simply struggle to make a note on those things and it puzzles me what it is about them that makes them pretty much unplayable for me.

At the moment my go-to pieces are a Zottola 62B and Denis Wick 1W and, to be honest, despite the difference in size and depth of those two I don't find a great deal of difference in how they play for me except that I can get a more 'dirty' sound from the Zottola that swings where the Wick is clean and clear and hard to distort. I was really struggling a few weeks ago due, I thought, to my embouchure but I have realised that it's actually due to somehow unconsciously tensing my solar plexus due, I think, to exercising with heavy weights. The minute I realised that my lower abdomen was sort of freezing in place and started it moving my blowing freed right up.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet

[Andy Cooper]

What shallow model Bachs are you referring to?

[JayKosta]

[TriumphantTrumpeter]

I can't recall the Bach's precisely as I gave them away some time ago. They were Cornet pieces that I had been given, along with a number of others, by another player. I think they were a 3 and a 7 and I think one was an E depth and the other a D. I could not get a note out of them at all.

I don't believe that I play with an outward pucker. I would say that the 'moving part' is the central portion of my upper lip which I try to keep as relaxed and pressure free as possible in the centre of my mouthpiece and strive to keep the lower lip taught. I try to keep the pressure between the mouthpiece and my lips, especially my upper lip, as low as possible as pressing hard was killing my endurance.

With the pieces like the Rudy Muck and shallow Bach ones I tried everything I could to make them work and, if I snuck up on them, I could just about get a scale out of them but with no volume and awful tone and, if I blew with my normal air pressure I killed them altogether.

I wonder if it's the sheer lack of internal physical volume that doesn't work with my particular oral physiology. I am quite happy not to use these pieces as I do find the 62B Zottola and Denis Wick serve me very well I'm just curious as to why I find them impossible to play.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet

[Irving]

If you had a rim to buzz into the size that you can't play, and you can make a buzz then I would guess that your lips intrude into the mouthpiece and the shallow cup impedes you from getting a sound. This is just a guess! Anyway you know which mouthpieces you can't play, which is helpful to know. More mouthpieces that you don't need to try.

[kehaulani]

Bottoming out?

Have you tried a C cup, or a Bach or Schilke with just the model number but no letter designation (like, Bach 6/Schilke 12) as opposed to Bach 6C or Schike 12 A4).
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[TriumphantTrumpeter]

I haven't got any problems with C cup depths, I can play those fine. I believe my Zottola 62B and 64B are both slightly shallower that a Bach C depth cup and I get on well with them and my Denis Wick 1W is quite a deep cup as are a lot of the small vintage mouthpieces I have. Basically no problems playing the majority of the pieces I have large or small but shallow cups seem to utterly defeat me for some reason. Perhaps I am 'bottoming out' on them. Whatever it is, I have learned that one thing I can't seem to do is play shallow mouthpieces the burning question is why can't I although in the grand scheme of things I suppose it really doesn't matter just a puzzle to ponder over.

Never have I come across an instrument that requires the player to be such a big and complex part of the system as the trumpet does. It's a beautiful challenge trying to conquer it or even come to an honourable truce with it.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet

[krell1960]

[TriumphantTrumpeter]

I understand what you say Tom and you may well be right but I haven't been able to sound on those pieces despite all manner of lip gymnastics.

I suppose the big question, apart from simple curiosity as to why they defeat me is - Does playing shallow cups offer anything that makes it worthwhile to try and conquer them for what I want to play?

I gather the shallow cups tend to be favoured for higher range playing but to be honest, and I have been pondering this a great deal of late, the higher range isn't really of great attraction to me except in terms of being a challenge and I really love just swinging around in the area on, slightly above, and below the staff where I get so much pleasure out of the tones so I will probably be more than happy if I can reach a point where hitting the B or C above the staff is relatively easy and I will then turn my attention to making the most out of that range and leave the high notes to others with the skills and techniques to execute them well. I rather suspect that my taste in notes on the trumpet corresponds to my own vocal range and so I am attuned to singing with the trumpet what I might sing with my voice.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet

[Andy Cooper]

Seems like you do well with mouthpieces that have a good bit of rim undercut - many shallow mouthpieces don't have much. On the other hand you need some depth in the center of the cup.

You might try one of the larger Parduba double cup mouthpieces - perhaps in the 6 1/2 to 7 range. They have a precise rim a little like the Zottola's, at least as much undercut as a Bach 2C, and shallow 1st cup but deep funnel in the center of the cup.

Larger models actually have a pretty good overall sound.


https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/index.html?mpc1id=VA001500&mpc2id=B042500

[Robert P]

[JayKosta]

[TriumphantTrumpeter]

I know what you are saying Robert Pand you are quite right about my need to get things better in the basic playing stakes. I do like to monkey about with stuff though and see if I stumble across things that just might work out. I have been putting in quite a few hours each day, every day, over the last few weeks, and I think I am really beginning to get somewhere including being able to get up to the C above the staff fairly cleanly more and more. Not anywhere near what I want to hear coming out of my horn yet but I think there is definitely an improvement. Good Lord! Even my wife complimented me the other day when I was noodling around with the rather beautiful melody of Aura Lee which I took as high praise from one who states at every opportunity that she doesn't like the sound of the trumpet as an instrument.

Andy Cooper, interesting that you suggest the Parduba. I did come across someone selling an old Parduba mouthpiece here in Scotland on ebay just the other week and they were raving about it being the choice of Harry James whose playing I really rather like. The double cup does intrigue me too. Unfortunately I didn't bid on it so I will need to look and see if I can find one to try out.

Thanks JayKosta for your opinion on shallow pieces being not really of any advantage to me in the kind of music I want to play. I did tinker with one of the pieces that defeats me today, a Rudy Muck 17c and, merely by eye and feel it doesn't feel that much shallower or look that much smaller in diameter than my favoured Zottola piece but, trying various attacks on it I could barely get above middle C and, to generate much in the way of sound I had to open my lips wide on the rim and blow rather gently. Definitely not a piece for me I think.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet

[JayKosta]

[kehaulani]

[TriumphantTrumpeter]

Ach this is a personal challenge and exploration. I don't ever see myself playing in public with my trumpet and have no desire to play for others if I'm honest. I play for myself because it moves me. I love the challenge of exploring, trying something and, if it doesn't work, tearing it down and taking a different tack until I hear something that I just think "Now that really hits me where I live" and I feel the swing take me over. I'm interested to pick up hints, tips and generally shoot the breeze on things that puzzle me a bit but I don't really want anyone to point out the way to me. It's no loss to the world if I never progress beyond 'crappy' and, if I do manage to sound half decent I can pat myself on the back over having done it all by myself with just a few kind words and advice here and there.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet

[Irving]

TT, I'll give you my 2 cents worth of advice. First, forget about mouthpieces. If you are just starting out, they won't do a thing for you. Use one of the mouthpieces that you can get a sound out of, and be done with it. I know that you read this forum, and a lot of people say this and that about mouthpieces, but imagine you are starting a new sport, like running or golf. Do you think messing around with golf clubs will improve your game? It is the same with trumpet.

Second, I would look for a teacher that will start you out on the right foot. I remember that when I started out, a clarinet teacher was teaching the trumpet section. I was 10 at the time. I ended up tonguing with my lips until I was corrected.(Not by the clarinet teacher). So you don't want to be doing anything like that. Even if you want to learn on your own, have somebody check you out. It is easy enough to get into bad habits. Good luck! It looks easy (that's why I picked it. 3 valves, no problem), but in reality it is one of the most difficult wind instruments. Trumpet is probably the most difficult for sound production, along with oboe.

[TriumphantTrumpeter]

Oh I hear you on the difficulty level Irving! Over the years I've learned to play other instruments including Bagpipes, Electric guitar, Fiddle, Melodeon, 5-string bluegrass Banjo, Clarinet, Flute, bass, Double bass and Saxophone and none of them have given me the trouble that the trumpet is giving me and I think the amount of difficulty is part of the reason I'm enjoying doing battle with it.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet