Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:27 pm Post subject:
Halflip wrote:
delano wrote:
Is there any consensus here about what a ‘warm’ flügel sound might be?
I think of it as being like shoes . . .
Should be great; how do you want your flügel sir: cold, warm or hot?
Please just warm with a little edge.
BTW I really enjoy this kind of threads, I just learned a French word for this kind of stuff: charabia.
In all of this discussion about flugelhorn sound, mouthpieces and intonation, I'm a little bit surprised that no one has mentioned the leadpipe taper. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that the french (or "Couesnon") taper makes a significant difference in both sound and intonation. Now that Kanstul is gone, getting a french taper leadpipe for any flugelhorn is problematic, and I don't think even the current incarnation of Couesnon makes horns that take the french tapered mouthpieces. It's possible that one of the B&S flugelhorns (maybe the FBX) ships with a french taper leadpipe, but I'm not certain about that, and I haven't seen them offered for sale as parts.
Also, the bottom-sprung valve clusters allow for a tighter wrap, which I feel influences the sound and intonation. Bottom-sprung valves and french taper leadpipes were the features of the F. Besson and Couesnon flugelhorns that defined the sound that, at least for this listener, makes for that classic warm, smoky jazz concept.
It would be nice if someone were to specialize in making leadpipes for flugelhorns similar to the Blackburn leadpipes for piccolo trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorns in particular, but in my opinion just about every flugelhorn would benefit from a french taper leadpipe/mouthpiece combination.
Actually, the OP contacted me prior to beginning this thread and we did talk about changing his 1525's tuning bit (lead pipe) to French taper, thinking that perhaps Allied Music might have a few left over from the B.A.C. buyout. That's why I did not mention it until now.
It was told to me that the solution to flugelhorn intonation is primarily the bell branch taper. Byron Autrey claimed to have developed the mathematical model for that while working with Zig Kanstul. That work has revolutionized how well flugelhorn play. Zig was willing to share that knowledge with, or at least make parts for other manufacturers in order to improve their instruments.
It is true that bottom sprung valves tighten up the radius of the bell branch bow, but they tend to make the bell bow a larger radius. Bottom sprung valve cases are shorter by perhaps an inch and a half and so give greater latitude to adjust the wrap. Case in point are the Wild Thing and Kanstul 1025, which are very similar. The two differences one sees are the placement of some of the valve bracing, but more important the bell and branch bows. The Kanstul bell has a double radius bell bow that tightens up at the bottom of the bow, while the WT has the very same single radius found on the 925. This means that the branch bend is tighter on the 1025, too. I've spent a lot of time on both instruments (both with French taper mouthpieces) and found that the Kanstul turned a little trumpety and more resistant above the staff, while the WT did not. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2348 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:51 pm Post subject:
It may be a unicorn, but my LA-era Calicchio Copper flugelhorn is the darkest, most diffuse flugel I've ever played. I did have a chance to AB it with a Kanstul 1525 years ago and the Callichio was darker and more diffuse. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 Posts: 1020 Location: Southern CA
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:05 pm Post subject:
The warmest flugelhorns I've ever owned were the Stomvi Elite 5926 w/ copper bell and the Wild Thing. I didn't like the build of the Stomvi. It had rough solder joints and a two-piece bell. But it played wonderfully.
Although the Kanstul 1025 and Wild Thing look like "twins", the Kanstul plays much brighter by comparison. The WT's wider bell wrap and thinner tubing make it a far better horn IMHO. As "shofarguy" Brian points out, the bracing between them is also very different.
Neither the Kanstul 925 or 1525 (which are very similar BTW) have the warmth of the WT. _________________ Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:19 pm Post subject:
kehaulani wrote:
“Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.” ― Thelonious Monk
This is brilliant. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
If someone hasn't already mentioned it, I've never heard a warmer, fluffier sound than what Bill Colletti achieves here on this comparison of Andy Taylor flugels, at least going by the recorded sound. I think a lot of the sound is due to his somewhat atypical embouchure. He gets similar results on every horn he plays.
I am a Taylor dealer in the US and I have a Phat Boy in my shop right now and it is indeed a very warm, dark sound regardless of who plays it. Bill Colletti has a great sound himself, but everyone who plays this instrument notices its depth. It is also a spectacularly beautiful design.
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:33 am Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
If someone hasn't already mentioned it, I've never heard a warmer, fluffier sound than what Bill Colletti achieves here on this comparison of Andy Taylor flugels, at least going by the recorded sound. I think a lot of the sound is due to his somewhat atypical embouchure. He gets similar results on every horn he plays.
NICE! Gotta love Wichita Lineman. Excellent choice for flugel.
ed
Like Wichita Lineman eh? As a comparison in the Warm Wars - here's a Chinese stencilflugel on Wichita Lineman. The second time I come around to that sustained low D I got lazy about using the trigger and it demonstrates that it *does* need to be used - erk. A difference of thousands of course in the pricetag.
Using the generic mouthpiece that came with it. Sounds nicer with a Denis Wick 4FL - I actually got turned on to the Denis Wick mouthpiece by the Bill Colletti video.
See my posts above featuring Bill Colletti - *that's* a fluffy sound. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
If someone hasn't already mentioned it, I've never heard a warmer, fluffier sound than what Bill Colletti achieves here on this comparison of Andy Taylor flugels, at least going by the recorded sound. I think a lot of the sound is due to his somewhat atypical embouchure. He gets similar results on every horn he plays.
I think you're right on both counts. I contacted Jamie from Trumpet Gallery (Melbourne, FL) who specializes in high-end horns and she said the Phat Boy is the warmest flugelhorn she sells. And I've listened to several Bill Coletti videos and the sound is 90% the same...super-warm! Would love to hear him play piccolo trumpet!lol
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 76 Location: Cornwall UK
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:20 am Post subject:
If you are looking at the best of the best in Flugels. The Eclipse should be considered. Gary Ayelsbrook who is an absolutely brilliant flugel player plays one constantly on his social media feeds. Go check them both out, fantastic player with a fantastic horn.
I have the Kanstul 1525 and it’s the best, warmest, fluffiest, silkiest sound I have ever gotten.
From what I hear the only thing that’s just as good or even better is the Inderbiden Wood ($6,000). I have not played one yet so I really can’t say. But the 1525 is a horn that’s a keep, ESPECIALLY since they are no longer in production. _________________ Martin Bohme Tumultus
Kanstul 1525
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 Posts: 1020 Location: Southern CA
Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:34 pm Post subject:
ECLtmpt2 wrote:
I'd like to know how the Kanstul 1525 sounds compared to the Adams F5. Similar construction, Copper, straight-through valve block airway...
Yes, but other than that there is very little on common between them. The Kanstul has top-sprung valves, while the F5 has bottom sprung valves. The F5 has a wider wrap and IIRC the slides are brass. The Kanstul has nickel slides.
Their design features are actually more different than alike. _________________ Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine
His horn? A Noblet flugelhorn, which is a stencil of an old Leblanc, which is a stencil of an old Courtois (the model before the 154/155/156/159R "direct air column" models). I know because I asked him. (He also told me his mouthpiece of choice is a Bach 6 'no letter' flugel piece. I thought these would have to be custom ordered based on Bach's mouthpiece catalog, but Mouthpiece Express stocks them.)
I actually acquired one of these Noblets a couple of years ago; it really does have a very warm, sweet tone through its entire range. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
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