Protein and weight training principles applied to trumpet

[kurth83]

In the search for a stronger embochure as an older struggling comeback player, I recently tripped over some research about protein supplementation. It showed a surprising increase in muscle mass and strength if proper amounts of protein (more than most diets) are used, and the protein is optimally taken after the exercise. Up to 35% more muscle mass was observed by doing this (over no protein supplementation/inadequate protein intake).

By that standard I've been doing everything wrong. And 35% more embouchure strength does sound appealing.

My main practice session is in the evenings after dinner (as are my rehearsals). My protein intake is way lower than their recommendations (110 g/day for 150 lb body weight). Pretty sure if you eat that much protein without exercise you are going to gain weight in a bad way though, especially if it is all in one meal.

I am thinking to combine my trumpet playing with my exercise regimen and do it all in one session, trumpet, then exercise, followed by a protein powder mix. So a small dinner with some protein and time to digest, then the exercise sessions, and then the protein supplementation.

Does anybody here apply weight training principles like that to trumpet playing? The science says it should help, curious if we have any anecdotes to support it.

I know we have to apply muscle training principles to our practice sessions, and we all do it to some degree deliberately or not, but body-building in terms of protein for some reason I never thought of before, probably because I was content with my embouchure strength when I was younger.

[Robert P]

Nobody here has any idea what your particular history is and whether any specific dietary suggestions would be a bad idea for you.

In general I don't believe something beyond a normal balanced diet would be useful as far as getting better on trumpet. Later career Maynard was in terrible physical condition and he still had a strong high range. Al Hirt, Maurice Andre - pretty sure they weren't on any training diet.
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[JoseLindE4]

A few assumptions in this approach worth reconsidering:
1. The relative importance of strength vs. ease of playing: Struggling players often use too much face, get tired, and then assume they must get stronger. How strong can little lip muscles get? Do you really need more face strength or do you need to learn to use less effort?

2. The ability to increase your lip muscles mass/strength to a notable degree: I question whether adding protein would have the same results for your lips as they are for large muscle groups. I don’t see many brass players walking around with body builder faces.

3. The point of practice: is trumpet a skill or a muscular feat? The first time I played in the extreme upper register, I was shocked how easy it was. No unusual face strength needed, just doing it right and doing it easily. Some conditioning is needed, but you may be overestimating it by a lot. Proper sleep and basic lifestyle issues has more impact on my playing than any protein supplement ever would.

4. The science of this: does it really say it should help? Why would Popeye face muscles make it easier? It’s not hard to find many examples of players making the machine work quite easily. Rather than chase strength, why not figure out how they are doing it?

[JayKosta]

I do use a protein supplement (whey powder) as part of my fairly rigorous physical exercise routine, so I have some familiarity with it, and the research and claims about it. I'm 74, in good health, and very active.

For me the only obvious change is faster growth of - wait for it!
ear and nose hair
finger and toe nails
so I am confident that it does do 'something'!

I continue to use it because of the research, and that hopefully it is somehow beneficial.

Yes some 'embouchure muscle strength' is needed, but I think that what is more important is developing 'control' of those muscles to produce the needed embouchure configuration. And producing that configuration is a skill that needs to be learned and developed - trying to 'muscle through' is not a good path.
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[Jaw04]

I drink at least 50 grams of whey protein powder a day, in order to consume a gram of protein for each lb that I weigh (180). Eating protein and lifting weights is great. Building muscle and retaining muscle mass is very good for your overall health, and overall health impacts everything in your life.. how you feel, how you sleep, your performance, stamina, metabolism, etc. However I doubt it will specifically do much for your embouchure. The embouchure uses tiny muscles and is much more about delicate coordination than strength.

Best supplement to take for your embouchure is plenty of H20.

[MarkD]

I haven’t tried protein powder but something I’ve mentioned in other posts has worked very well for me in embochure development.

The Caruso musical calisthenics for brass (the 6 notes) has increased my range and endurance better and faster than anything.

Two weeks on it produced a noticeable improvement in both and I never looked back. Just my $.02 worth..hope it helps.

There’s a forum here dedicated to Caruso for more details.

[JayKosta]

[Steve A]

Not knowing much about how long the OP has been back on the instrument, or how accomplished they were before stopping, this is obviously making some broad, and possibly not very accurate assumptions, but for what it's worth:

I think this is A: going about trying to improve trumpet playing in completely the wrong way, and B: likely to make things worse rather than better.

In my experience, every time I have tried to focus on building strength itself, rather than trying to build finesse and allowing whatever strength gains that result from those exercises to come along for the ride, things have quickly gotten worse rather than better. Good playing is about balance, coordination, concentration, and meticulous care paid to improving small details, and simply trying to build up particular muscles doesn't do anything to address any of those things. (If it's even possible to build huge lip muscles by supplementing, which I'm inclined to doubt.)

Here's a 10 year old playing way up above the staff, then playing the Tomasi Concerto. I'd encourage you to watch this any time you feel like more strength is the answer:

https://youtu.be/3zGXjGZMpxg?t=78

[Jaw04]

[JoshRzepka]

I personally don't think anything beyond a well balanced diet is needed.

That being said, a few things:

Can you provide a link to the study? You mentioned an increase in muscle mass by 35%, but also threw in strength in one sentence.

Many people who are lifting and taking supplements are doing so for the aesthetic look of more muscle - larger and more defined but not specifically "stronger" (e.g. bodybuilders). Look at any powerlifters (those who aren't using steroids) and you'll see that muscle mass ≠ strength. There are plenty of bodybuilders out there with huge muscles, but their strength to weight ratio isn't nearly as good as a powerlifter someone who is focused on strengthening their muscles. Generally speaking, the Olympic level lifters are not freakishly large from a muscular standpoint, many look relatively small compared to bodybuilders.

Even with strength training you've got people with a terrific one-rep-max and limited muscular endurance. Then you've got people lifting a lower amount for multiple sets with shortish breaks in between, training for muscular endurance as the end goal. Which would benefit you more for gigs/playing?

While more muscular mass may be a byproduct of some of these training methods, but it's not specifically always the goal.

If you're going to think about it that way, I'd first define what "a stronger embouchure" means to you (and perhaps why you think you need to strengthen it, vs refine it to be more efficient). Then, the weight training principal you may want to investigate will be clearer ... but I'm still not entirely certain that that thought path will give you the actual solution you're looking for.

Any competent trainer will tell you that form is far more important than weight, otherwise you're going to either injure yourself, or eventually have some real limitations from not doing everything correctly.

Larger muscles/more strength can certainly help overcompensate for deficiencies and lift you past your weaknesses and limitations, but eventually if you're not doing the fundamentals correctly you'll end up injured or in a position that you can do some things but not others (e.g. lift a LOT, but no range of mobility --- or as the trumpet is concerned, play high and loud, but no ability to play soft and in control).

Just some things to consider.. [/i]
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[oxleyk]

A sensible kettlebell routine that works the core muscles improves many parts of your daily activity, including breath support for trumpet playing.

Kent

[sd4f]

[kalijah]

[Bethmike]

[Big C]

I work part-time as a personal trainer. Lots of good advice on this thread.

Eat a healthy, balanced diet, including the recommended amount of protein (or maybe a little more). Forget "high protein".

Exercise, including cardio and core strength, can only help. It will also enhance your overall quality of life.

By far the most important thing: intelligent trumpet practice. For example, what would make me a better trumpet player would be more practice and some lessons with a great teacher.

If you want to apply muscle-building principles to trumpet practice, alternate harder days with easier days. Do a warm up and a cool down. And take a day off every now and then.
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[sd4f]

[trickg]

Anecdotally I can say that I play better when I'm in shape both lifting weights and doing cardio, but I don't think it has anything to do with lip strength, but rather my ability to utilize my air.

I posted about having a chops meltdown about a month ago. In hindsight I've come to the conclusion that I tried to play too soon after my hernia surgery, and I simply wasn't utilizing my air because I didn't have the abdominal strength to push it, and my embouchure collapsed because of it - I'm not sure if strength training my embouchure would have helped.

I'm certainly no expert - all I know is what I have picked up in an anecdotal way over years of doing it - but it seems to me that the embouchure is about refinement and balance, not strength.

[peanuts56]

[kurth83]

Hey thanks for the lots of good posts. I will look into the caruso calisthenics at least.

I did add a little bit of whey after my trumpet routine. My embouchure is getting noticeably stronger and more consistent, whether the whey is responsible we will likely never know.

I was once a pretty decent classical player, finesse and control came easily to me, as did endurance. After 18 mo of practice at age 62+ I am still not close to where I was, and I have been well trained in how to practice by Claude Gordon. Or at least his methods worked very well when I was younger and I do continue to improve, I have not hit a plateau.

My embouchure is finally nearing what I call functional, meaning the finesse, tone, and control are beginning to be consistent, but the endurance is still lacking. I admit I am assuming this is because I am weak, although I have other evidences for this such as difficulty in slurring up in upper range, something that used to be easy. The thinking is if it takes 90% of my max strength to get good tone now vs say 50% when I was younger, the endurance will be correspondingly less. In any case I am practicing diligently and carefully, am in a few groups that help immensely as workouts, so time will tell I guess. I am privileged to be in groups with some truly great players and it is amazing how much you can learn by simply listening. I made some equipment choices to get that "sound" I wanted and it paid off hugely, and more endurance too (mostly a more open horn).

All I can say is I do stay in good shape, cardio and weights (Claude was pretty big on that stuff too). I cannot lift as much weight as I could when I was younger, nor do I care to, as that would likely lead to injury. But for the embouchure I most definitely want to recover as much strength and endurance as possible.

I think these posts are just me venting, hopefully I will post a year or so down the road that I did recover most of what I had. If there was no internet y'all wouldn't have to listen to this.

I asked my doctor about testosterone supplements too (also promoted to increase muscle mass and strength in elderly men) and he said that was a *really* bad idea as it causes nasty side effects like heart attacks. Eating a little whey is pretty benign by comparison.

[trickg]

I think it depends on the guy taking the testosterone supplements. I've been on them for a year or so and the difference in how I feel day to day is dramatic. Just the same, I didn't do some things correctly and I didn't lose the weight I'd put on during the Covid lockdown when I first started taking them.

Fortunately I've finally gotten some gumption to do something about it and I've been actively working out for about the last month. I have a ways to go with the weight, but the strength is back almost in full, and it didn't take long to get it there thanks to the T. The weight is coming off, but 40 lbs doesn't come off overnight, or even in just a month or so - it's going to take 6 months of work to get myself back in the game the way I was prior to the lockdown.

I monitor my blood work with my urologist every six months, and I asked him about maybe getting off of the T. He suggested that we tweak a couple of other things first.

I say all of that to say that just because one doc (who may not be up to date on the facts) tells you that TRT puts you at risk to heart attack doesn't make it so.

Here's the very first article that popped up when I Googled "Testosterone Replacement Therapy Heart Attack." According to the most recent study across 17 trials and 3500 men, there's no measurable increase in cardiac events in men who partake in TRT.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/237318/testosterone-treatment-does-increase-risk-heart/#:~:text=Men%20taking%20testosterone%20therapy%20are,their%20first%20year%20of%20treatment.

My suggestion to you would be to research it and get a second opinion.
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