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HD8353
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Joined: 02 May 2023
Posts: 4
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 Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 7:09 am Post subject: Technique Book Discrepancies (MP Position) |
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| Recently I've been trying to develop a more efficient and stronger embouchure because I've been having some pretty bad endurance problems. I decided the books would be the best place to look for help and in the Arban book it says to place 1/3 of the mouthpiece on the upper lip and 2/3 on the bottom lip. This makes since to me because I see it like putting a ruler off the edge of a table and smacking it. The ruler starts to vibrate faster the less you have hanging off the edge of the table, so the less top lip you have in the mouthpiece the faster it vibrates, right? But in the Claude Gordon and Maggio books it says to place 2/3 on the top lip and 1/3 on the lower lip to allow the lip to vibrate more freely and eliminate response problems which also makes sense. I know this isn't an exact science and different things work for different people but I just want to see what some other people think because my playing is not where I want it to be right now and I'm looking to make some changes. |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Don't know how pedagogically sound this is but I've personally been guided by the shape of my mouth/teeth.
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Dayton
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, there isn't a one-size-fits-all rule. Based on lips, teeth, jaw, etc., mouthpiece placement is a very individual thing, within certain parameters (not in the red on top, not too far off center, etc.).
You are dealing with a symptom (endurance) and guessing at a solution (mouthpiece placement). If you are having problems, find a good teacher. You are far more likely to get the results you want if you are working with a good teacher than you will on your own.
Good luck! |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Technique Book Discrepancies (MP Position) |
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| HD8353 wrote: | | ... to allow the lip to vibrate more freely and eliminate response problems ... |
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That a very important part! Using lip position (all facets) and aperture that can and will vibrate when activated by a reasonable air flow.
One of the things that I think is especially important is to recognize and use lower-lip pressure to adjust and control the distribution of overall lip pressure.
This is especially relevant to players who have developed the habit of strongly increasing upper-lip pressure in the hope of it making faster vibrations. That does seem to often work up to G above the staff, but then more pressure stops the vibrations and air flow. The 'trick' is to produce the aperture size that will vibrate at the desired pitch, AND which is flexible enough to do so with reasonable air pressure and air flow.
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Last edited by JayKosta on Wed May 03, 2023 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Technique Book Discrepancies (MP Position) |
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| HD8353 wrote: | | in the Arban book it says to place 1/3 of the mouthpiece on the upper lip and 2/3 on the bottom lip. |
The book is a great resource for developmental material, Arban was dispensing one size fits all embouchure advice. Maybe it worked for him, it might not work for you.
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Mike Prestage
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Joined: 09 Oct 2012
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Location: Hereford, UK
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Technique Book Discrepancies (MP Position) |
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| HD8353 wrote: | | The ruler starts to vibrate faster the less you have hanging off the edge of the table, so the less top lip you have in the mouthpiece the faster it vibrates, right? But in the Claude Gordon and Maggio books it says to place 2/3 on the top lip and 1/3 on the lower lip to allow the lip to vibrate more freely and eliminate response problems which also makes sense. |
I get where you're coming from but you're missing an important piece of the puzzle here. Both lips vibrate to some extent and, while the top lip is more 'active' than the bottom lip for most players, that same majority of players have more top than bottom lip in the mouthpiece. Some players do very well with the opposite setup, with the bottom lip doing most of the vibrating and taking up the most room in the mouthpiece.
It's possible that you might turn out to be one of them but I don't think it would be helpful to focus on this as a likely answer to your endurance difficulties before exploring what else you could do to change how you're approaching playing. You might be able to transform your playing without going anywhere near concrete embouchure changes, and equally there are other aspects of the nuts and bolts, besides mouthpiece placement, that might turn out to be game changers for you.
Mike
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chuck in ny
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Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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claude gordon's advice is best for a lot of players, the high mouthpiece placement.
that said your endurance issues are probably not 100% from mouthpiece placement. still, work out one issue at a time. |
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MrOlds
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Joined: 25 Apr 2003
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Location: California
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2023 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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There are so many other things that could be affecting your endurance.
Put the mouthpiece where it sounds the best. Then figure out what to practice to solve your endurance problem. A few lessons with a good teacher might help diagnose what to work on and keep you from going down too many dead ends. |
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donovan
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Joined: 23 May 2002
Posts: 248
Location: Springfield, MO
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| Posted: Sun May 07, 2023 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Grab a lesson with a Reinhardt teacher (Doug Elliott, Dave Wilkin and Chris Labarbara are three I have experience with).
They can help you sort out the correct placement for your physiology.
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