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My latest 1924 Conn 22B, need help/knowledge of rotary valve



 
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 8:06 am    Post subject: My latest 1924 Conn 22B, need help/knowledge of rotary valve Reply with quote

Just got this 1924 22B with the replaceable rotary valve tuning slide. Never had the rotary valve before, only seen in pics, so I have a couple questions:
1. Should it have same serial as trumpet? mine has different one, much earlier if it goes by the same list.

2. My biggest question, is the inner curve, that looks like the #2 valve slide, a slide that should come off?

3, the valve twists to go from a to b flat, mine is stuck, if I unscrew the knob, to attempt to unstick it, is there anything I should watch for that I could mess up, rubber gaskets, etc.?



It's in really good shape, but has evidently had the leadpipe replaced a long time ago, and with a very poor solder job, so I'll have to redo that.

Can't believe i got it for $114 total




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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. No. The numbers on the valve are not linked to the serial number.

2. That crook is not removeable.

3. There are no non-metallic parts in these. The metal is very thin and fragile however, so great care must be used when one of these is corroded in place.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
1. No. The numbers on the valve are not linked to the serial number.

2. That crook is not removeable.

3. There are no non-metallic parts in these. The metal is very thin and fragile however, so great care must be used when one of these is corroded in place.


Thank you so much Ron. Just what I needed to know. Is that trumpet-history.com site yours? Great site, I use it all the time.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sure you realize that to be in tune all the valve crooks need to be pulled when going from Bb to A. I have read that some models have scribe markings to show how far to pull. (I’ve never owned one myself)
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
I am sure you realize that to be in tune all the valve crooks need to be pulled when going from Bb to A. I have read that some models have scribe markings to show how far to pull. (I’ve never owned one myself)


Thanks, wasn't sure about that, no marks though.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, new question, how do I know which way it should turn? I see the A & Bflat on one side of the dial, should that part of the dial move and what should they line up with? The center post on that side of the disk looks threaded and stands up somewhat, almost like there may have been some sort of indicator on that side that is no longer there, is that a possibility? most pics only show one side and I don't remember seeing something like that, but it does seem possible.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, blew up some pics, I'm definitely missing an outer dial that screws into the one side and it's only the center piece that should move when that dial is turned. Oh well, nice to have the piece, maybe one day I'll be able to repair it. I doubt anyone makes replacement parts.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to have a 1925 model. Here’s a photo of the selector knob. There’s a mark (or maybe a small arrow) on top of the knob that’s the indicator. There is a serial # on the rotor that should match the one on the rotor housing, but they don’t match the serial # of the instrument. Mine played very well in A, but I rarely had the opportunity to use it that way.

I later bought a nice 1929 model with no standard tuning slide, but it had the tuning slide with the rotor. Problem was, the shaft on the rotor was broken off and the rotor was stuck in the A position. I posted on many of the trumpet sites (including this one) looking for a rotor, and a generous member had an old one and mailed it to me. Of course, then the rotor and housing serial #s didn’t match, which didn’t bother me until I discovered the rotor was a few thousandths too large to fit. That’s why they had serial #s on them, because each rotor was fitted to a specific housing. Anyway, I fixed it and later found an old 22B standard slide and bought it to complete the kit that originally came with the trumpet.

Post what you’re looking for everywhere and be patient and I’m sure you’ll eventually find a rotor knob for it.


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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
There is a serial # on the rotor that should match the one on the rotor housing, but they don’t match the serial # of the instrument.

the shaft on the rotor was broken off and the rotor was stuck in the A position. I posted on many of the trumpet sites (including this one) looking for a rotor, and a generous member had an old one and mailed it to me. Of course, then the rotor and housing serial #s didn’t match, which didn’t bother me until I discovered the rotor was a few thousandths too large to fit.


I would guess I'm in the same boat. Do you remember when you replaced it how it fit on? Did you have to open the casing and replace the whole piece? What's left on mine is about an 1/8" stub that I can see is threaded inside. I would have thought, from my experience with other such setups, that the stub would be square with a corresponding female piece on the dial and the screw holding the 2 together. But the stub that's left is round, which doesn't quite make sense, unless there was more of it with some sort of slot or square for leverage to turn, with the screw holding the 2 pieces together. Unless, it was a longer shaft broken off, much like a water faucet handle, that continued inside as one piece to the valve, much like a water faucet also. I assume that if that valve assembly comes apart, it's screwed together? Hopefully not soldered together? If I can get it cleaned up so it moves easily, I can jerry rig some sort of knob to actuate it until I find the correct one. You said you had to fix the mismatch due to tolerance, how did you fix that? That'll give me a clue as to it's functioning.
Right now, it's more of a curiosity than a priority, although I don't like things that aren't working so I'll toy with it in my spare time. Got it soaking in liquid penetrant now so I can get it apart.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just FYI: These are really great playing smaller bore, very "trumpety" sounding, horns. I have played many Easters on a French brass bell 1927, and have a 1925 sitting at the corner of my keyboard right now. BUT, they play much better with the fixed slide. So it can be fun to restore the slide fully, but you can enjoy playing it with the standard one in the mean time.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
Dale Proctor wrote:
There is a serial # on the rotor that should match the one on the rotor housing, but they don’t match the serial # of the instrument.

the shaft on the rotor was broken off and the rotor was stuck in the A position. I posted on many of the trumpet sites (including this one) looking for a rotor, and a generous member had an old one and mailed it to me. Of course, then the rotor and housing serial #s didn’t match, which didn’t bother me until I discovered the rotor was a few thousandths too large to fit.


I would guess I'm in the same boat. Do you remember when you replaced it how it fit on? Did you have to open the casing and replace the whole piece? What's left on mine is about an 1/8" stub that I can see is threaded inside. I would have thought, from my experience with other such setups, that the stub would be square with a corresponding female piece on the dial and the screw holding the 2 together. But the stub that's left is round, which doesn't quite make sense, unless there was more of it with some sort of slot or square for leverage to turn, with the screw holding the 2 pieces together. Unless, it was a longer shaft broken off, much like a water faucet handle, that continued inside as one piece to the valve, much like a water faucet also. I assume that if that valve assembly comes apart, it's screwed together? Hopefully not soldered together? If I can get it cleaned up so it moves easily, I can jerry rig some sort of knob to actuate it until I find the correct one. You said you had to fix the mismatch due to tolerance, how did you fix that? That'll give me a clue as to it's functioning.
Right now, it's more of a curiosity than a priority, although I don't like things that aren't working so I'll toy with it in my spare time. Got it soaking in liquid penetrant now so I can get it apart.


If I remember correctly, there’s a tab and slot setup between the knob and the shaft. You just unscrew the cap with the A and B on it, and the rotor should come right out if it isn’t corroded in there. To be so old, these are great small-bore trumpets - they were named the New York Symphony model.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks, that gives me an idea of how to proceed.

Yes, they are great, when they fitted parts by hand. Blows my mind at how so many were so poorly treated. Great sound also. This one I just got needs a bit of work, looks like a 5th grader tried to solder on the leadpipe. But, on the plus side, all the slides are free and I got the A/B slide with it, even if it's not complete, I ought to be able to craft a knob or something to turn the valve, after I free it up, until I can find one. Like you said, I likely won't use the A anyway, so pretty much just a novelty, and makes it more complete as a collectible as most don't have one slide or the other at all.
I really like these older horns, and you just can't beat them for what you'd pay for a current one of the same quality. I got an email for a Harrelson selling at 50% off for $3000, wow. I remember I thought I paid a lot for my Bach Stradivarius back in high school at $400-500,can't remember exactly, it was when they still made them in Elkhart. Now I have some great horns for half that, and get to try some different ones, like my Tonk and HB Jay, that are actually quite good for a song. All made amazingly well, if cared for. But some, like my 1924 Martin Dansant were left too long with moisture inside, it looks great, but going to be a real project as everything is stuck firmly, but it only cost me $80, so not too big a deal and practice for fixing them.
I have another Conn coming Tuesday that I did pay a bit for, $200, it's a military contract cross between a 2B and a 22B, can wait to get it, play it. I'm not that good, but enjoy fooling around with them and it passes the time.
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Aj
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Just FYI: These are really great playing smaller bore, very "trumpety" sounding, horns. I have played many Easters on a French brass bell 1927, and have a 1925 sitting at the corner of my keyboard right now. BUT, they play much better with the fixed slide. So it can be fun to restore the slide fully, but you can enjoy playing it with the standard one in the mean time.


My 1923 22B never came with a rotary slide. I love it though. Plays wonderfully and i am lucky enough to have one in very good condition. Has a great tone, reasonable compression and could easily be played at a gig.

I found mine here in Australia and they are ultra rare around these parts. Would love to know its history as I am sure the horn would have some stories to tell.
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Aj
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Just FYI: These are really great playing smaller bore, very "trumpety" sounding, horns. I have played many Easters on a French brass bell 1927, and have a 1925 sitting at the corner of my keyboard right now. BUT, they play much better with the fixed slide. So it can be fun to restore the slide fully, but you can enjoy playing it with the standard one in the mean time.


My 1923 22B never came with a rotary slide. I love it though. Plays wonderfully and i am lucky enough to have one in very good condition. Has a great tone, reasonable compression and could easily be played at a gig.

I found mine here in Australia and they are ultra rare around these parts. Would love to know its history as I am sure the horn would have some stories to tell.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aj wrote:


My 1923 22B never came with a rotary slide. I love it though. Plays wonderfully and i am lucky enough to have one in very good condition. Has a great tone, reasonable compression and could easily be played at a gig.

I found mine here in Australia and they are ultra rare around these parts. Would love to know its history as I am sure the horn would have some stories to tell.


I now have a lot of Conns, 1921 4B or 26B,1924 22B,1932 military spec 2B,1940 22B,1955 14B, Love them all
Have so many now, but my favs are 1932 Conn, 1940 Conn 22B, 1927 King Liberty, and 1964 Martin Imperial
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you wait long enough, EBay usually provides. The knob & screw are typically the same on all of those.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Trumpet-Parts-Mouth-Pieces-Levy/266278114699?_trksid=p11021.c100851.m5053&_trkparms=https://www.ebay.com/itm/266278114699?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20170803121420&meid=df91bf7b66b0407f85b9f41ace172bb3&pid=100851&rk=3&rkt=4&b=1&sd=134591975125&itm=266278114699&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=11021&algv=DefaultOrganic&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m5053.l9430&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=775e170f49804adab404e66d3fcac30b&bu=44269687977&ut=RU&exe=0&ext=0&osub=-1~1&crd=20230531021320&segname=11021&pageci=452c17f8-651f-4d1b-916e-2ab45045d767&redirect=mobile
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
If you wait long enough, EBay usually provides. The knob & screw are typically the same on all of those.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Trumpet-Parts-Mouth-Pieces-Levy/266278114699?_trksid=p11021.c100851.m5053&_trkparms=https://www.ebay.com/itm/266278114699?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20170803121420&meid=df91bf7b66b0407f85b9f41ace172bb3&pid=100851&rk=3&rkt=4&b=1&sd=134591975125&itm=266278114699&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=11021&algv=DefaultOrganic&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m5053.l9430&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=775e170f49804adab404e66d3fcac30b&bu=44269687977&ut=RU&exe=0&ext=0&osub=-1~1&crd=20230531021320&segname=11021&pageci=452c17f8-651f-4d1b-916e-2ab45045d767&redirect=mobile


Yeah, that one looks like it has its own problems. Knob is missing and the screw looks like it’s snapped off in the rotor shaft. Not a bad price so far for all of it, though.
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