Ridiculous bore question: make big bold C trumpet small

Riojazz

OK, if I'm asking for nonsense, you'll get a good laugh.

Many years ago I needed a C trumpet quickly and bought a very early Shires in New York City. Not many choices at the time. Now, I do love the horn; it sounds and plays wonderfully.

Three years ago I toured the Shires factory, tried tons of horns, and chose my Bb Destino III, medium bore. It's the smallest bore in that style.

I'm older now and for my small church, I would rather have a C trumpet that doesn't take so much to fill and sound so much like the big beast that it can be.

Is there a modification that will somehow tame my huge bore C and make it play more like a smaller bore horn? Go ahead and laugh; what do I know? Thanks.
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

Divitt Trumpets · Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 2:38 pm Post subject:

Changing the bracing can change things. Adding weight. Adjusting the gap. Adjusting venturi.
These are all more easily and more effective than changing the bore.
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Riojazz · Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 3:09 pm Post subject:

Most interesting. I did not think those changes would have so much effect. Thank you.
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

Andy Cooper · Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 4:11 pm Post subject:

Check with Shires about the possibility of a tuning slide with a smaller inside diameter.

Goby · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 650

Venturi (leadpipe opening diameter) is king when it comes to determining the way a horn feels. If you are insistent on modifying the trumpet, replacing the leadpipe is probably the easiest solution, especially if you can order one from Shires set up like your Destino. From their website, most of their C trumpet leadpipes have venturis that measure between .349" and .351", which is reasonably large for a Bach-style instrument. I would recommend that you ask for a .345" C trumpet leadpipe, which should be the same as your Destino.

Beyond the leadpipe venturi, the next parameter to change would be the mouthpiece, but that is a topic for a different post.

JonathanM · Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:13 pm Post subject:

Destructo · Veteran Member Joined: 18 Apr 2022 Posts: 173

I second the idea of the Venturi being an easy one to target.

Harrelson sell shim kits with different venturi and gap options. You could get a thin shim that chokes the venturi of the leadpipe down to whatever size you want.

https://www.whyharrelson.com/store/p267/Mouthpiece_Gap_Shims.html

There might be some guess work for the outside diameter required so it sits ontop of the current leadpipe ledge securely without falling out, but you can probably ask them for something like:

All thinnest-possible shims:
5 x 0.40, each with a different Outside Diameter
5 x 0.45, each with a different Outside Diameter

That's the $50 solution.

Mouthpiece backbore is the next option. It's tricky with C trumpets though because a tighter backbore, especially on a large bore instrument, will likely end up playing flat above the staff. So if any of your music goes above the 1st ledger A, it'll probably become a problem. (I found a few times that the A will end up actually in tune without trigger, but then the Bb on up will be well flat).
Of course, this could get expensive trying stuff out unless you can go into a store that has a Warburton Kit or somewhere like ACB, find something that works, and buy only that set up.

After that, next most expensive option would be a tuning slide with a tighter bend, and possibly a smaller bore. The smaller bore and a tighter bend will possibly make the D/Eb/E at the top of the staff flatter.

After that, the solutions get more difficult and expensive. Alternate leadpipes is the next option, and ultimately the best solution, but you may or may not want anything quite so permanent if you like the instrument how it came.

You *could* buy an alternate pipe for it, and have a tech attach a hook/clamp for it, so you can use the second pipe without removing the original.

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441

Riojazz · Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:15 pm Post subject:

Thank you all for such interesting answers. I have written to my rep at Shires.

I am familiar with the difference Blackburn leadpipes made on several of my horns. Trying a leadpipe the same equivalent size as my Bb Shires makes sense and would do no harm. Maybe I could even drive back to the factory to try it.

Given the other creative suggestions here (throat, shims etc.), perhaps it wasn't such an odd idea after all.
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

chrisf3000 · Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:16 pm Post subject:

If you go down the path of swapping leadpipes, etc. you might end up going down a very deep rabbit hole. A lot can be done with an efficient mouthpiece - one with perhaps a smaller throat or tighter backbore. The perception will be that the horn is smaller.

That said, you could also try to go to an ITG convention where you might be able to try dozens and dozens of horns until one speaks to you. You will know it when you play it, I promise! If money is a concern, you seem to be within driving distance of Dillon Music, where you might be able to try horns there and see what works. Good luck and report back what you find.

trumpjosh · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:59 am Post subject:

You might check with a repair tech (and I mean a VERY GOOD one) about tapping the leadpipe venturi with the correct tool. I had Steve Shires himself do this to one of my Bbs several years ago when he was still with the company. In about 10 seconds, he made the horn respond much better for my playing.

Regarding Blackburn pipes/slides, they can make these for Shires horns, but in my experience they achieve sort of the opposite of what you're looking for (think bigger/darker).

Some other differences between the older Shires horns and current ones are the weight of the leadpipe (they switched to using an "H" leadpipe on most of their offerings around a decade ago) and the braces. I always mix this part up but older ones were cast and later ones were forged (I may have that backwards). I've had identical C trumpets from them that just had that one difference and it made a HUGE difference in slotting and response.

Good luck!
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kalijah · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 12:53 pm Post subject:

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441

kalijah · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:47 pm Post subject:

Andy Del · Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:00 am Post subject:

It might sound strange, but try taking a really big breath, and not playing as loud. Relax and just play a bit more contained, to the person in front, not the back of the church.

It's the cheapest option.
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Riojazz · Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:52 am Post subject:

Quick update. Again, thank you all for continuing info.

I have not yet heard back from Shires.

A few of you know me, but I might mention I've been playing professionally for 62 years so I am able to make a few needed adjustments to play this horn. Most of the time I just use a cup mute.

[And here's an opportunity to plug a really terrific mute for this purpose: the Frank Huber cup mute. Tim Wendt put me on to it. Fabulous sound, great intonation. www.fhubermusic.com/ I still use Denis Wick on a big band gig, but I use this Huber cup mute in the church. ]
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441

Remember, the church is live. Calibrate your ears accordingly. I'm not exactly young myself, and I still have to work at that calibration to the hall. I wish the Wenger simulation rooms had been around when I was a kid. After that, start simple & work up (in $$). I have had great success (with some help from the kind folks at Schilke) finding mouthpiece solutions to the challenges of age and other factors (mostly age - peers being the biggest sample set available) that allow tried and true hardware to continue to serve as well as ever at minimal cost and effort.
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Riojazz · Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 10:14 am Post subject:

Riojazz · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 6:27 pm Post subject:

I've made contact about this with nice folks at Shires. I'll update this thread when appropriate.
_________________
Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

Riojazz · Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 11:48 am Post subject:

Just an afterthought in response to some great comments especially by OldSchoolEuph. I do use a different mouthpiece with this horn in church, a Touvron-D. It is what I think one would call massive; there is a lot of mass in that mouthpiece. You are correct, that does tame the sound a bit.

Aside: I first tried a Touvron (regular) and while I like it for tone and articulation, I did not appreciate the difficulty playing anything over the staff. The Touvron-D solves that nicely.
_________________
Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.