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Life beyond the 11B4, or aimless searching?


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Heinz
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:50 pm    Post subject: Life beyond the 11B4, or aimless searching? Reply with quote

For extended period, I'm playing the Yam 11B4. I like that mouthpiece. It is efficient, clear sounding, and it helps in the higher registers. Combined with the Yam 5335GII I found it sounding a bit 'tame'. So I have used a Bach 3C for some time, which brightend the horn up. I switched back to the 11B4 because the 3C is costing me too much range and endurance in longer sessions.

In search of a brighter and more open sound, I bought a B&S 3143/2. The B&S/ 11B4 combination is working pretty well for me. But I keep thinking about another mouthpiece. So I bought an A&S 6C. In the living room it sounded promising, but in rehearsal it felt tiring. So I switched back to the good 'ol 11B4 in the break. And I had my range back instandly.

I don't know why I think there is still a better option for me than the 11B4. Maybe because it is on the small side, and a more 'advanced' piece can generate more tonal color. Is that logicall thinking, or just lunacy if you have something that works?
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your post confused me. I played for quite some time an 11B4 and it is a very bright mouthpiece. If I remember well, Yamaha aimed it for high trumpets (D, Eflat)
The Bach 3C, though it has a shallow cup will not be brighter, on the contrary I would say.
I don’t know the A&s 6C (very good mp’s BTW) but if it is a genuine Bach clone it will have a very deep big cup so trying to play with a real bright sound on it will indeed be tiring. If you are really comfortable on the 11B4 the 3C will be too big diameter for you. Some here will not agree with this but I am sure about that.
The first thing you could do is getting much clearer what sound you’re looking for and the simple description ‘brighter and more open’ seems not to be enough.
If the 11B4 feels too tight you could consider to go a little bit bigger like a Yamaha 13B4 or a 14B4.
The 14B4 is still smaller (or feels smaller) than a Bach 3C.
You live in Holland so if you want you can borrow a Yamaha 14B4GP (the heavy blank) from me.
I kept it in the cupboard for the very little chance that I should ever join again a bigband. You can eventually pm me.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is lunacy to think that a different mouthpiece is a "more advanced" mouthpiece. It sounds like the 11B4 mouthpiece is working for you. Your time would be better spent practicing on the mouthpiece you have that works.
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah it is confusing.

Maybe I made it up in my head that the 3C was brighter. But it sounded different nonetheless. Maybe broader. The 6C has a much deeper cup indeed. The sound is likeable. I think I'm playing towards a certain sound I have in my head, no matter the mouthpiece. My wife does notice small differences between MP's, but it is hard to explain sound in words.

I used to have a 14B4 and 14B4GP a couple of years ago. I ran into the same issues as the 3C. Good sound, but more tiring than a smaller MP. So I sold the GP and traded the standard for a Schilke 11, which I sold later. In hindsight, I should have kept both 14's. They could have worked for me now.

Thanks for your offer. I shall PM you if I want to try again.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using VennCAD by Vennture to compare below.

3c = Red
11B4 = Green

Caveat: there have been 3Cs measured at larger than a 1 1/4C, so the difference is potentially greater than shown.

You can see that the 3C has a wider internal diameter, a fractionally deeper cup (just above the shoulder) and a larger backbore.

The 11B4 has a longer cylinder section and a tighter backbore.

It is no suprise to me that the 11B4 is more efficient for you - it's really useful to get rid of the idea that it is not a professional mouthpiece. It is just simply a mouthpiece. The player determines whether it is professional or not.

If you like the 11B4 in terms of feel and response but want to tweak the design to suit yourself the most logical thing is to start there and modify it rather than to randomly buy mouthpieces. You know this works, and you want to tweak it. That's easy with VennCAD & 3D printed prototypes!

Good luck!
Mike



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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 5:13 am    Post subject: Re: Life beyond the 11B4, or aimless searching? Reply with quote

Heinz wrote:
... I like that mouthpiece. It is efficient, clear sounding, and it helps in the higher registers. ...

------------------------
Has anyone commented about a lack of 'brightness' or 'openness' in your sound?

For most playing situations, the main requirements are: playing the right note, at right time, right loudness, right pitch. Small differences in 'tone' are much less important.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chances are, your problem is the Yamaha "C" backbore. Matt Frost describes it in his PhD dissertation. Its response tends to be very even in all registers so it doesn't "light up" as much as you play louder and higher as other backbores. That's a good thing if you are playing with a choir or woodwinds and you need to play high without overpowering the group.

If you are willing to spend the money, either have a 11B4 cut and threaded as a top only or order one already cut from mouthpiece express.

Then start trying Warburton backbores. I would start with the Warburton #7. It is perhaps a little more open than the stock Bach backbore and is fairly "bright". Frost, Pickett and others also have many backbores from commercial to orchestral for you try.
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bach_again wrote:
Using VennCAD by Vennture to compare below.

3c = Red
11B4 = Green


Wow! They almost look the same. Weird how very small differences can feel bigger than they are.

JayKosta wrote:
Heinz wrote:
... I like that mouthpiece. It is efficient, clear sounding, and it helps in the higher registers. ...

------------------------
Has anyone commented about a lack of 'brightness' or 'openness' in your sound?


No, when I listen back to a recording on the 5335/ 11B4, it sounds already pretty bright. The B&S sounds brighter by default.

Andy Cooper wrote:
Chances are, your problem is the Yamaha "C" backbore. Matt Frost describes it in his PhD dissertation. Its response tends to be very even in all registers so it doesn't "light up" as much as you play louder and higher as other backbores. That's a good thing if you are playing with a choir or woodwinds and you need to play high without overpowering the group.

If you are willing to spend the money, either have a 11B4 cut and threaded as a top only or order one already cut from mouthpiece express.

Then start trying Warburton backbores. I would start with the Warburton #7. It is perhaps a little more open than the stock Bach backbore and is fairly "bright". Frost, Pickett and others also have many backbores from commercial to orchestral for you try.


Yeah, some more power in the higher register would be nice. I play 2nd in a bigband, and it is difficult to keep up in loudness with the lead player. He uses a Reeves MP and plays loud by default, which multiplies because he already plays higher.

In the harmonie orchestra I have no problem with that whatsoever.
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Trumpjerele
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also know the Yamaha 11b4, I have played it for quite some time.

The only thing I don't like about that mouthpiece is the dynamics. It's hard to play with it at high volumes. It lacks punch.

I had a bob reeves 42M and it was much easier to make a "laser" sound. But the rim was too big and "slippery" for me. No wonder your partner can play much louder than you.

Now I don't play anywhere where I need a punchy volume, but if I did I would possibly look for a Yamaha 11a4, a Yamaha Bobby Shew lead or a Yamaha Allen Vizutti.

I'm curious how those mouthpieces would perform.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
Chances are, your problem is the Yamaha "C" backbore. Matt Frost describes it in his PhD dissertation. Its response tends to be very even in all registers so it doesn't "light up" as much as you play louder and higher as other backbores. That's a good thing if you are playing with a choir or woodwinds and you need to play high without overpowering the group.

If you are willing to spend the money, either have a 11B4 cut and threaded as a top only or order one already cut from mouthpiece express.

Then start trying Warburton backbores. I would start with the Warburton #7. It is perhaps a little more open than the stock Bach backbore and is fairly "bright". Frost, Pickett and others also have many backbores from commercial to orchestral for you try.


Though I'm not 100% sure I am for 99% convinced that the 11B4 has a Yamaha b backbore. The problem is that the Yamaha numbering system is very inconsistent. That the 11B4 has no backbore indication would suggest the standard=c backbore but Yamaha chose to only indicate the a backbore. The rest is guessing. So do the E mouthpieces have the biggest e backbore but you can't find that back in the numbering.
N.B. I only know one exception on the 'a' rule: the cornet mouthpiece 7D4d.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:


Though I'm not 100% sure I am for 99% convinced that the 11B4 has a Yamaha b backbore. The problem is that the Yamaha numbering system is very inconsistent. That the 11B4 has no backbore indication would suggest the standard=c backbore but Yamaha chose to only indicate the a backbore. The rest is guessing. So do the E mouthpieces have the biggest e backbore but you can't find that back in the numbering.
N.B. I only know one exception on the 'a' rule: the cornet mouthpiece 7D4d.


Check https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/ and down load the XLSX file that gives the backbore size in cc mm. Looks like most of the B and C cups are about the same. The mouthpieceexpress chart shows the same "semi-narrow" backbore for the B and C cups
http://mouthpieceexpress.com/specshub/specs/specs_yamaha_trumpet.html

The A cups do use a tighter backbore as do some of the Signature mpc.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I know. The majority of all the Yamaha trumpet mouthpieces use the semi-narrow = the b backbore. Up to now I only found one trumpet mouthpiece that uses the standard = c backbore: the 11 no letter.
My comment was meant as a probable correction on your assumption that the 11B4 should have a c bb which should be responsible for the OP’s problems.
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But can it be played louder with a larger troat and backbore?

I'm reading into the 'lead pieces' and they all tend to have small backbores, but they sound powerfull nonetheless.
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delano
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most (not all!) leadplayers like some resistance in their setup, a mouthpiece with some compression is a way to go there.
But for the average non-pro player a #27 throat and semi narrow backbore is a good way to go. Going bigger may give some more volume but will also have some consequences for range and endurance.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clarification:

The "YC" backbore Frost tested was from a Yamaha 14C4 mouthpiece and would be classified as "semi-narrow" - probably should have been labeled as the Yamaha B backbore in his dissertation. (Most Yamaha B,C, and D cup mouthpieces use this backbore.)

The 11B4 uses the same "semi-narrow" backbore. " Its response tends to be very even in all registers so it doesn't "light up" as much as you play louder and higher as other backbores. "

The Yamaha backbore I ordered from an online company stamped "C" was also from a Yamaha 14C4 mouthpiece and I confirm - it's nice but does not "light up" much when pushed.

So again I suggest, if you like the 11B rim and cup, get a top cut and threaded and try a different backbore. You can get more brilliance and increased volume of sound with a change - even with the standard #27 throat size.
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
Clarification:

The "YC" backbore Frost tested was from a Yamaha 14C4 mouthpiece and would be classified as "semi-narrow" - probably should have been labeled as the Yamaha B backbore in his dissertation. (Most Yamaha B,C, and D cup mouthpieces use this backbore.)

The 11B4 uses the same "semi-narrow" backbore. " Its response tends to be very even in all registers so it doesn't "light up" as much as you play louder and higher as other backbores. "

The Yamaha backbore I ordered from an online company stamped "C" was also from a Yamaha 14C4 mouthpiece and I confirm - it's nice but does not "light up" much when pushed.

So again I suggest, if you like the 11B rim and cup, get a top cut and threaded and try a different backbore. You can get more brilliance and increased volume of sound with a change - even with the standard #27 throat size.


The Yamaha "C" (also an "A" is available) backbore is indeed available via Mouthpiece-express but I have no idea what kind of backbores these are in the regular Yamaha numbering system. They can be one of the a to e bb's but also completely different custom bb's. They seem to be something like a
Mouthpiece-express only product.

BTW cutting an 11B4 for only the cup is not necessary, you can order the cup alone (with Warburton thread) via Mouthpiece-express. (also a M-E only product?).

https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=197_213_315_1165&products_id=22573

Also noteworthy is that James Morrison plays (played?) a standard 14B4 for a long time and had no problems to "light up" as far as I know and can hear..
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this German article (great site BTW) with explains a lot:
https://trumpetscout.de/die-auswirkung-von-mundstueck-trompete-auf-die-lautstaerke-gefuehlt-gemessen/

The Reeves is louder in the higher register than the 11B4, and higher notes are louder by default. But in the lower register, the 11B4 is as loud as the Reeves. As 2nd in a bigband, I think there is no obvious benefit to switch to a very shallow mouthpiece?
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aimless searching. You answered your own question. You found a mouthpiece that you like, but you are convinced that another mouthpiece will be better. A couple of points. Anytime you switch mouthpieces, they will sound slightly different, but in a very short time, they will sound normal. That is, you will grow accustomed to the new sound and it will become your old sound. It is a nasty trick that mouthpieces play on you. Another point is that for every advantage that you think a mouthpiece gives you (usually short lived), you will get the corresponding disadvantage. Bigger backbore=less resistance= less brilliance. Shallower cup=better high notes=worse low notes and general sound. Nothing is free in this world.

Your mouthpiece is a middle of the road mouthpiece. Nothing wrong with that. I would listen to recordings of players whose sound you like and try and copy them with whatever mouthpiece you use.
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still thinking about a 'louder' mouthpiece.

Would a transition to a Reeves 42 M or S be sensible for bigband? Or a Yamaha 14A4A?
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Trumpjerele
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2023 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had a bob reeves 42M for about 4 years, although it was never my main mouthpiece.

It has a very soft bite, which makes it feel bigger than it is. I didn't like the rim.


At the time I preferred a bob reeves classic 3c to this mouthpiece.

Mind you, the sound was powerful, very commercial.

So far I have not found a better all-round mouthpiece for me than the Yamaha 11b4.

Yesterday I received an Arnold and Son 10 1/2C, the first sensations were positive, it only feels slightly smaller than the Yamaha, the rim felt very comfortable and I loved the sound all over the range!!!

Although it doesn't feel like a lead mouthpiece to me but an all-rounder.
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