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The "Dime" trick


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BreakFromTheHerd
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:00 am    Post subject: The "Dime" trick Reply with quote

My horn slots a little "loose," which means it isn't great for technical etudes but works quite well for small group jazz. Bending notes is easy.

In an attempt to tighten the slotting—or at least my perception of the slotting—I dropped a U.S. dime into my third valve's bottom cap. A player on YouTube had recommended this trick.

Well, the horn indeed tightened up. Too much, actually. The upper register was choked off to such a degree that it ruined the horn.

I promptly removed the dime.

It's crazy how the addition of something so small can completely wreck a trumpet. I guess it must work on some horns, but it sure didn't on mine.
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Gonzalez
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s the same with heavy caps, that looks cool, but really change the playability of the horn!

Take a look at this gadget! It works the same way, to tighten up the horn, but you can move it around and find the sweet spot 😊

https://www.thomann.de/gb/martin_seibold_tone_stability_enhancer_tse_1.htm
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Irving
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could try a pre 1964 dime. They were made out of 90% silver.
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ericmpena
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer tighter slotting, so I usually go with heavier trim options.

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a company sell bottom cap washers/weights. Can’t remember where from though.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try the dime in the first valve bottom cap.
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use one of these on my tenor horn. Works well for me for slotting in the upper range. YMMV. Strong refund policy.

https://www.heavybottomcaps.co.uk/
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can also try a very small amount of tuning slide grease on the threads of your valve caps. I use heavy slide grease (Hetman or Ultra-Pure). Don’t know why it works but I like the result.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might try a washer of the same diameter instead. Apparently some have noticed a difference based on the size of the washer hole.

I use a silver dime with a hole drilled in it. For me - just right.

Next variation is a large O ring in the bottom of the valve cap followed by the washer - screwed down.

Possibly a Bach Tone Ring - never tried it.

Then of course there is just the O ring at the top of the threads with the cap screwed down tight against the O ring.
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JHirakawa
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Kanstul French Besson Classic came with a set of heavy bottom caps. I use one on the 3rd valve once and a while. Using two or three caps changes the horn too much. I got a set of brass washers at my local ACE Hardware to try with my Benge and Holton trumpets. They cost pennies each. Just take a valve cap to an ACE and you should be find some that fit in no time.


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brass_washers_in_trumpet_bottom_valve_caps.jpg
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kurth83
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is there a trick to go the other way, to loosen the slots on a too-tight trumpet, like removing the 3rd valve cap?
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience, lighter weight instruments respond less positively to weighted caps and such. Even my 72* ML with a standard leadpipe did not care for the added weight of heavy caps. But, I have other standard weight Bach trumpet, and have had great response and success when I space the weighted cap with an O-ring. Change the o-rings periodically for optimal response.

Now, this same trick has never helped a Schilke Bb or C for me. Schilke weighted caps helped my E3L, again spaced with o-rings. My Yamaha C trumpet has a stainless nut, held by superglue, in the third valve cap, also spacing the cap with an O-ring, with great positive effects.

CCaps are too much for all of my horns, but honestly, that is my preference. I like the Bach caps, like the Schilke caps, but the well made but heavier caps are not in agreement with my playing.

Never be afraid to experiment. You might find something you might not. But, the price of admission to this experiment is certainly reasonable, and recoverable if you decide it doesn't work for you.

Just my opinion...happy to suggest more if it is wanted.

Al
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Lawler Bb
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurth83 wrote:
So is there a trick to go the other way, to loosen the slots on a too-tight trumpet, like removing the 3rd valve cap?


If you have standard (lever) waterways, loosen the screw on the tuning slide water key a 1/4 of a turn at a time. Grab your pinky hook and give it a very gentle, slight pull upward (not enough to bend the hook). Your horn will respond differently after doing those things.

Also, take out your 2nd valve slide and reinsert it backwards/upside down. Your horn will play differently.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting stuff I never knew, but wondered about when seeing the valve cap kits the site referenced above https://www.heavybottomcaps.co.uk/tom-hutchinson-abcs explains some of it. Maybe that's why someone I ran into on here didn't care much for the 1960's Conn 15B Director, yet I love my Conn 14B Director and it plays, to me, and I'm certainly not at most on this site's level, nearly as well as my 1940 22B NYS. The main difference between the 14B and the 15B is the size and weight of the valve caps and angle struts vs straight struts. Could just the difference in the valve caps between the 2 identical horns be the difference/ I guess it's all subject to the player's skill and play style preferences.
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starkadder
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was a skeptic about cap weights for a long time.

I have a 1947 Old Super that I loved to look at but never played. It vibrated in my hand.

Added dimes and then Harrelson caps, and it became a different horn. Now the vibration goes out the bell and it is my daily player. This after 10 years in a case.

Go figure.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

starkadder wrote:
I was a skeptic about cap weights for a long time.

I have a 1947 Old Super that I loved to look at but never played. It vibrated in my hand.

Added dimes and then Harrelson caps, and it became a different horn. Now the vibration goes out the bell and it is my daily player. This after 10 years in a case.

Go figure.


Wow, now I'll have to experiment with some of my old horns. I know that I've found in the process of the 20 or so I've bought this year when I started collecting, I also collected with them, partly bc I looked at them as an addition to value I was paying, a multitude of mouthpieces. Many of which are old specialty mouthpieces as well as old Conn's, Olds, Holton, every Bach and Blessing size imaginable. And I've found, by experimenting that certain ones are better on certain horns, which, to me as really a novice that mostly played with a Bach 7c, was quite a surprise.
Now I'll have to try one of those adaptable kits, or dimes or washers to start maybe, because I'm sure that all the trumpets don't have the same size caps.
Are all the kits just bottom caps or do they replace top and bottom?
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried the dime trick a few years ago in my Getzen 700 Eterna trumpet and Capri cornet. It definitely affected the response and the sound. Can't say if it was better or worse, just different.

Other tricks are to tighten/loosen the water key nut and see how it affects the response in horns with traditional water keys. I tried that on my Bach and it affected the response--the looser the nut, the more quickly it responded, with looser slots. Of course we can't be having our water keys fall off, so it's not something I've done other than as an experiment.

It's interesting just how the slightest change in tension somewhere on the instrument affects how it blows.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spitvalve wrote:


It's interesting just how the slightest change in tension somewhere on the instrument affects how it blows.


Yeah, it is. When I think about all the horns I've looked at and the changes on same models in things like the type of braces, angle of the 2nd valve slide, bottom springs vs top springs vs internal top springs, and even placement of the water key on the slide, or some earlier ones that didn't have a water key on the third slide. Amazing how all those things must affect how a horn plays if just loosening a water key, or putting a dime in one valve, or heavier/lighter valve caps, can change it's play that much. I was just looking at Holton 45's, because I bid and won a 1947 one on eBay tonight, and i noticed they had a regular and a deluxe, the regular has a totally round tuning slide no brace and z type bell braces, the deluxe has a 2 bend tuning slide and a brace on it and strut type bell braces, so you have to imagine they would play very differently from each other, yet the same model.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Try the dime in the first valve bottom cap.


This made my Bach 72R respond even better. Thanks, Shofarguy!
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JHirakawa
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
spitvalve wrote:


It's interesting just how the slightest change in tension somewhere on the instrument affects how it blows.


Yeah, it is. When I think about all the horns I've looked at and the changes on same models in things like the type of braces, angle of the 2nd valve slide, bottom springs vs top springs vs internal top springs, and even placement of the water key on the slide, or some earlier ones that didn't have a water key on the third slide. Amazing how all those things must affect how a horn plays if just loosening a water key, or putting a dime in one valve, or heavier/lighter valve caps, can change it's play that much. I was just looking at Holton 45's, because I bid and won a 1947 one on eBay tonight, and i noticed they had a regular and a deluxe, the regular has a totally round tuning slide no brace and z type bell braces, the deluxe has a 2 bend tuning slide and a brace on it and strut type bell braces, so you have to imagine they would play very differently from each other, yet the same model.


Congratulations on the 1947 Holton. I have a 1947 Holton Model 48. The 48's also came in two versions, regular and deluxe. I have a regular model 48 with a reverse tuning slide and no brace. It's a rare medium bore 48. I got it last fall for less than $300. It was in great shape other than wore lacquer in the usual places. It even came with both nuts and the washer for the 3rd valve slide stop. I tried it with washers in the bottom valve caps when I first got it. I'll have to try the washers again now that I've had the horn for a while. I am somewhat reluctant to change anything on a vintage horn. Prefer to play them like they were designed to be played. Especially the Benge. The Holton valves are on the left side of the photo. The Benge valves are on the right. Both horns came with amazing valves. They must have been replated at some time. I just cleaned the valves with Dawn before I took the photo.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Benge_%26_Holton_Trumpets.jpg
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JHirakawa wrote:


Congratulations on the 1947 Holton. I have a 1947 Holton Model 48. The 48's also came in two versions, regular and deluxe. I have a regular model 48 with a reverse tuning slide and no brace. It's a rare medium bore 48. I got it last fall for less than $300. It was in great shape other than wore lacquer in the usual places. It even came with both nuts and the washer for the 3rd valve slide stop. I tried it with washers in the bottom valve caps when I first got it. I'll have to try the washers again now that I've had the horn for a while. I am somewhat reluctant to change anything on a vintage horn. Prefer to play them like they were designed to be played. Especially the Benge. The Holton valves are on the left side of the photo. The Benge valves are on the right. Both horns came with amazing valves. They must have been replated at some time. I just cleaned the valves with Dawn before I took the photo.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Benge_%26_Holton_Trumpets.jpg


Thanks, yours is in better shape than the 45 I got. The 45 I got looks as if maybe someone stripped everything but the valve block at one time, either that or it's had a lot of wear, which might be, bc valve block is only thing shiny and bell engraving very worn. Key think is all slides move and no dents I could see anywhere. Mine has only the stop rod end cap, but not too big a deal, and the valves look in great shape. I can't complain for $110 total. Looks bad, but should play fine. I may strip and lacquer it myself. Valves on your two look the same. There was something on https://trumpet-history.com/Holton%20Models.pdf that said they went to french valves in the 50's but the 48 stayed the same.
Anyway, I'll be trying the dime or a brass washer trick on my horns just to see, but yeah, no permanent mods.
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