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The "Dime" trick


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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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Location: AZ

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
Try the dime in the first valve bottom cap.


This made my Bach 72R respond even better. Thanks, Shofarguy!
It's a trick I learned last month from Flip Oakes. He gave me a brass disc he'd cut from an old mouthpiece and had me put it in my trumpet. Actually, he wanted me to try it in my flugelhorn, but the effect was so great in my trumpet that I use it there now.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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JHirakawa
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
JHirakawa wrote:


Congratulations on the 1947 Holton. I have a 1947 Holton Model 48. The 48's also came in two versions, regular and deluxe. I have a regular model 48 with a reverse tuning slide and no brace. It's a rare medium bore 48. I got it last fall for less than $300. It was in great shape other than wore lacquer in the usual places. It even came with both nuts and the washer for the 3rd valve slide stop. I tried it with washers in the bottom valve caps when I first got it. I'll have to try the washers again now that I've had the horn for a while. I am somewhat reluctant to change anything on a vintage horn. Prefer to play them like they were designed to be played. Especially the Benge. The Holton valves are on the left side of the photo. The Benge valves are on the right. Both horns came with amazing valves. They must have been replated at some time. I just cleaned the valves with Dawn before I took the photo.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Benge_%26_Holton_Trumpets.jpg


Thanks, yours is in better shape than the 45 I got. The 45 I got looks as if maybe someone stripped everything but the valve block at one time, either that or it's had a lot of wear, which might be, bc valve block is only thing shiny and bell engraving very worn. Key think is all slides move and no dents I could see anywhere. Mine has only the stop rod end cap, but not too big a deal, and the valves look in great shape. I can't complain for $110 total. Looks bad, but should play fine. I may strip and lacquer it myself. Valves on your two look the same. There was something on https://trumpet-history.com/Holton%20Models.pdf that said they went to french valves in the 50's but the 48 stayed the same.
Anyway, I'll be trying the dime or a brass washer trick on my horns just to see, but yeah, no permanent mods.


The second trumpet in the photo is a 1948 Chicago Benge that I got at a local estate sale last year. The valves on both trumpets are great shape. The slides are fantastic too. Very nice compression on all valves and not a single dent on either horn. I got lucky last year.
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Kanstul FB Classic b-flat&C
'42 Buescher 205
'45 Martin Committee
'48 Chi Benge
'47 Conn 22b
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'47 Holton 48
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds, DEG Bugles
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jlambmusic
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Joined: 30 May 2023
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Location: Indianapolis

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention something like that can have the potential to rattle inside the casing which will cause a undesirable ring when using the 3rd valve and playing.
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dwgib
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Joined: 25 Mar 2023
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jlambmusic wrote:
Not to mention something like that can have the potential to rattle inside the casing which will cause a undesirable ring when using the 3rd valve and playing.

I wondered about that, although 1 person said something about a washer being superglued to the bottom cap. I wonder what the difference is between a washer, hole in middle, and a dime, being solid. I think it would matter whether it's the weight, or the dime blocking air flow, being responsible for the play difference. Would seem, since a dime is so small, it would be the restriction of air flow. I'll have to experiment after I go to hardware store.
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Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
jlambmusic wrote:
Not to mention something like that can have the potential to rattle inside the casing which will cause a undesirable ring when using the 3rd valve and playing.

I wondered about that, although 1 person said something about a washer being superglued to the bottom cap. I wonder what the difference is between a washer, hole in middle, and a dime, being solid. I think it would matter whether it's the weight, or the dime blocking air flow, being responsible for the play difference. Would seem, since a dime is so small, it would be the restriction of air flow. I'll have to experiment after I go to hardware store.


There does need to be a vent hole that matches the vent in the bottom cap. If the disc is sized properly and beveled, the cap will capture the disc between the valve case and the cap. I haven't tried a dime, but Flip says a penny will also work.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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JHirakawa
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
dwgib wrote:
jlambmusic wrote:
Not to mention something like that can have the potential to rattle inside the casing which will cause a undesirable ring when using the 3rd valve and playing.

I wondered about that, although 1 person said something about a washer being superglued to the bottom cap. I wonder what the difference is between a washer, hole in middle, and a dime, being solid. I think it would matter whether it's the weight, or the dime blocking air flow, being responsible for the play difference. Would seem, since a dime is so small, it would be the restriction of air flow. I'll have to experiment after I go to hardware store.


There does need to be a vent hole that matches the vent in the bottom cap. If the disc is sized properly and beveled, the cap will capture the disc between the valve case and the cap. I haven't tried a dime, but Flip says a penny will also work.


You are correct. If you look at the photo I posted. The washers that I got at ACE Hardware were only slightly smaller than inside of the bottom caps. When I tightened the cap the washer is trapped tightly between the cap and the valve casing. There is no vibration. The washer doesn't need to be beveled.
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Kanstul FB Classic b-flat&C
'42 Buescher 205
'45 Martin Committee
'48 Chi Benge
'47 Conn 22b
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'47 Holton 48
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds, DEG Bugles
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JHirakawa
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
jlambmusic wrote:
Not to mention something like that can have the potential to rattle inside the casing which will cause a undesirable ring when using the 3rd valve and playing.

I wondered about that, although 1 person said something about a washer being superglued to the bottom cap. I wonder what the difference is between a washer, hole in middle, and a dime, being solid. I think it would matter whether it's the weight, or the dime blocking air flow, being responsible for the play difference. Would seem, since a dime is so small, it would be the restriction of air flow. I'll have to experiment after I go to hardware store.


I would never superglue anything to a bottom cap. You may feel like playing your horn with with different combinations, say the 1st and 3rd valves, or without any extra weight. You need to be able to remove the washers without damaging the caps. Just find washers that barely fits inside the caps so they are trapped between the cap and the valve casing when you tighten the cap. Look at the photo I previously posted. I tried several caps from the same bin until I found three with just the right diameters for the caps.
_________________
Kanstul FB Classic b-flat&C
'42 Buescher 205
'45 Martin Committee
'48 Chi Benge
'47 Conn 22b
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'47 Holton 48
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds, DEG Bugles
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Riojazz
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gonzalez wrote:
It’s the same with heavy caps, that looks cool, but really change the playability of the horn!

Take a look at this gadget! It works the same way, to tighten up the horn, but you can move it around and find the sweet spot 😊

https://www.thomann.de/gb/martin_seibold_tone_stability_enhancer_tse_1.htm
Have you tried this?

Shires offers a much smaller version with a few of its horns; they call it a "1st-valve slide harmonic balancer (removable weight in the crook)." I don't notice any particular difference. You can of course put the device on your third valve slide, and even on the second.
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.
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AndyDavids
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting...something I may have to try, but novice question- if it makes a significant difference why wouldn't trumpet manufacturers just make it that way in the first place?
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JHirakawa
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyDavids wrote:
This is interesting...something I may have to try, but novice question- if it makes a significant difference why wouldn't trumpet manufacturers just make it that way in the first place?


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kanstul_French_Besson_Classic_b-flat,_C_trumpets.jpg

These are my Kanstul French Besson Classic trumpets. Kanstul sold the b-flat trumpet with two sets of bottom valve caps of different weights and two tuning slides, a single radius slide and a double radius side. I have a heavy cap on the 3rd valve and a double radius slide on the b-flat trumpet in the photo. The different valve caps and tuning slides were not after-market. They were designed for the horn and were included in the price. I usually use a heavy cap just on the 3rd valve. Sometimes I put them on the 1st and 3rd valves, sometimes I go with just the regular weight caps. It was a marketing tool that allowed you tweak the horn as you please.
_________________
Kanstul FB Classic b-flat&C
'42 Buescher 205
'45 Martin Committee
'48 Chi Benge
'47 Conn 22b
'69 Olds Custom Crafted
'47 Holton 48
'64 Bach Strad Cornet
'62 Olds Spl Cornet
'64 Conn 80a
'54 Conn 34a
Benge flugel
Olds, DEG Bugles
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyDavids wrote:
This is interesting...something I may have to try, but novice question- if it makes a significant difference why wouldn't trumpet manufacturers just make it that way in the first place?


Byron Autrey developed what he called Harmonic Balancers, which were soldered to the first valve slide crooks of the Destino I and II trumpets manufactured by Staub and Kanstul, respectively. Kanstul then used them on their X-Model Bb trumpet, which had them on both the 1st & 3rd valve slide crooks.

I had Kanstul install them on both slides of my personal Benge 5X and a friend's CG Benge. They do have an effect on how the horn plays. They give added density to the core sound, but it's different compared to what you get with heavy valve caps. It feels almost like the horn is wearing Spanks.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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daDavemeister
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have a traditional spit valve, try adjusting the tension of the screw.
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Dave Lindgren
Bach 37 Bb, Bach 229/25H C, Schilke P5-4, Schilke E3L-4, Dotzauer Rotary C, Benge cornet, eBay flugel
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Riojazz
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Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

daDavemeister wrote:
If you have a traditional spit valve, try adjusting the tension of the screw.
I've heard this over the years. What I would like to do is have someone else adjusting the tension, out of my sight, and then see if can hear and feel any difference.
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
AndyDavids wrote:
This is interesting...something I may have to try, but novice question- if it makes a significant difference why wouldn't trumpet manufacturers just make it that way in the first place?


Byron Autrey developed what he called Harmonic Balancers, which were soldered to the first valve slide crooks of the Destino I and II trumpets manufactured by Staub and Kanstul, respectively. Kanstul then used them on their X-Model Bb trumpet, which had them on both the 1st & 3rd valve slide crooks.


Curry makes or made those, sold through Mouthpiece Express, Osmun and a couple other quality vendors. The Curry version can be added or removed via a screw and Allen key, and are not soldered to the horn.

I have them on my horns. There are two weights available at last glance, a lighter version that is silver, and a heavier version in brass. Some of my horns, including lightweight horns, benefit from these weights.

Some balked at superglue holding a stainless nut in the third valve cap of my Yamaha. Mine has been configured that way for more than 30 years, and still plays great. Never an issue with the glue releasing. And the lighter weight harmonic balancers work great on that horn as well.

Considering a recent Yamaha Vizzutti I owned, there are interesting places where mass has been added to that trumpet and enhances the instrument. The old French Besson horns experimented with weight and bracing on trumpets with great success.

There is nothing "new" in instrument design, just unique and interesting applications.
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
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