• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Did Kuhnl and hoyer ever make trumpets for the Besson brand?



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
TriumphantTrumpeter
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 Nov 2021
Posts: 135
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 4:33 am    Post subject: Did Kuhnl and hoyer ever make trumpets for the Besson brand? Reply with quote

Hi all,
Does anyone know if Kunhl and Hoyer ever made trumpets for the Besson brand in the last twenty to thirty years?

I have a Besson model 712 trumpet which I previously enquired on TH about to try and locate the maker. At the time I was told that it was most likely made by Kanstul for Besson. But I have always been bothered by the faint, ill defined engraving of the word 'International' and the words Boosey and Hawkes, England on the Bell. On my recently acquired Kanstul 1600 the engraving on the bell is deep and crisp. One thing I always found to be quite unusual on my Besson 712 is that the front section of the thumb cradle on the first valve is quite long, reaching up below the bottom of the leadpipe. Today I noticed someone online selling a Kuhnl and Hoyer which appears to have the same distinctive thumb cradle and also the same valve tops, bottoms and buttons.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Doug Elliott
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1164
Location: Silver Spring, MD

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kanstul made some Bessons and likely B&H too, but probably not if it says England. It's more likely a Frankenhorn put together from various parts from different manufacturers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TriumphantTrumpeter
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 Nov 2021
Posts: 135
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm I've just been comparing the serial number against the Horn-U-Copia lists and I'm even more puzzled now..

The serial on the trumpet reads 712 - 791175 marked on the underside of the bell section with no other numbers whatsoever anywhere else on the outside of the trumpet. If it falls into the Boosey and Hawkes serials list it would place it as having been made in London in 1991. The Besson logo is quite crisp but the International isn't easy to read and the 'Boosey and Hawkes, England' is small and hard to read but, strangely when you look at it through a magnifier it's clear enough. I am actually wondering if perhaps it's simply that the lacquer has filled in the stamping to a degree.

As an instrument it is light and produces a good tone. It also has 'Besson' printed in black on the side of the mouthpiece receiver.

Casting an eye far and wide over the internet I have yet to find a single picture of a trumpet the same as it.

I was actually about to sell this trumpet off on ebay this week but at the last minute I decided to give it another chance and I don't think I'll be letting it go now although I have no idea whether it's considered a good or a bad trumpet by people more knowledgeable on such things.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Liberty Lips
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 972

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without seeing a photo of your trumpet, no one can say for certain where it originated. The thumb cradle isn't going to tell us much, and it's very unlikely that Kühnl & Hoyer ever stenciled Bessons.

There is a possibility that your trumpet was made in the Besson factory (owned by Buffet Crampon) near Delhi, India. Besson student tubas and euphoniums of reasonable quality have been made there for some time now, and they may be making trumpets as well. Counterfeit instruments labeled "Bessons" made in India entered the market about 20 years ago and were very poorly manufactured, but it sounds like your trumpet is much better than those were. I haven't seen any of these Delhi-made instruments, so any identification would be conjecture at best.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TriumphantTrumpeter
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 Nov 2021
Posts: 135
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some pictures of the trumpet

https://www.flickr.com/photos/150491124@N07/51851185714/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150491124@N07/51851185714/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150491124@N07/51850925033/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/150491124@N07/51849894347/in/dateposted-public/

As you can see from the photo of the Bell the 'International' and Boosey and Hawkes stamps don't even show up and are only just discernible when you zoom in on them although they are there and they aren't actually badly impressed when you look closely at them. More very 'subtle' and shallow than poorly stamped;

Looking on the Horn-U-Copia website it would seem that Boosey and Hawkes wouldn't be on the bell if the trumpet was made after 2003. I notice that, in the period 2001-2003 they used Schreiber parts (I've no idea what Schreiber parts look like) for a short period before making the trumpets entirely in house at the factory at Croxley Heath Unfortunately Horn-U-Copia doesn't list serials that might have been used at that time.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Liberty Lips
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 972

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely not a Kanstul. I would buy the story that this was put together with different parts from different sources, and that would be consistent with what I've heard happened after the Kanstul contract ran out. The U.K. was a likely location for it. Purely hearsay on my part, however.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TriumphantTrumpeter
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 Nov 2021
Posts: 135
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had never come across reference to Boosey and Hawkes having made them here in the UK in the 2000's until checking the serials on Horn-U-Copia and I seem to recall reading a document somewhere that said the reason that they contracted to Kanstul to make trumpets for them was because it was too expensive to make them in the UK due to labour costs.
_________________
Kanstul 1600
1954 Reynold's Contempora
Besson 712 International
CG Conn New Wonder Cornet
King Master Cornet
Buescher Aristocrat Trumpet (2)
Rudy Muck 7M Trumpet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
J. Landress Brass
Veteran Member


Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 423
Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is an Indian made Besson when Besson had factories in India, not to be confused with the knockoff pockets and instrument shape objects. Fairly decent horn, but certainly a student one.
_________________
Josh Landress
J. Landress Brass, LLC.
38 West 32nd Street, STE 908, NY, NY 10001
646-922-7126
www.jlandressbrass.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group