| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
dwgib
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023
Posts: 280
|
 Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:41 pm Post subject: Opinions pls: Martin Comm vs King Super 20 vs Olds Recording |
 |
|
At the point in my collection when I'll have to budget to 1 trumpet/month. Hard to find these high enders under $1000. Martin Committee vs King Super 20 vs Olds Recording/Super/Studio/Mendez. Even others I'd like, Kanstul/Benge/Bach , I don't have yet, in the same category. but limited by what i can spend, so let's say under $1200. So looking for opinions on which ones are best players vs desirability(I'll have to sell or give away at some point, maybe just to get another, so resale is considered)
_________________
Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2654
Location: Anacortes, WA
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Same question I have for all collectors is, do you realize that there might be people out there looking for what you just bought? And they actually want that horn to play it. If your intent is to play them all, then no problem. My beef is with the people who collect them to just have them.
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wow, talk about vastly different horns!
If you seek to understand the impact of design on performance, a broad dataset is required. Be patient. Make a list, know what the goals are. Watch for opportunity.
Rome wasn't built in a day (nor was a certain private Canadian collection of over 6000 instruments)
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Last edited by OldSchoolEuph on Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Richard III wrote: | | Same question I have for all collectors is, do you realize that there might be people out there looking for what you just bought? And they actually want that horn to play it. If your intent is to play them all, then no problem. My beef is with the people who collect them to just have them. |
There is also the issue of understanding. If people understand what they are looking for, and are given information on the massive options out there in the vintage market, then they may have a fighting chance of finding a good fit. Otherwise, they will be on safari endlessly.
But to make that possible, COLLECTORS and HISTORIANS need to research. That means buying a LOT of horns. If we cannot compare and contrast them directly, how can we offer credible data to the rest of the community? Collectors are not just hoarders. Collectors are mostly scholars and people who give of their time and treasure to try and leave a legacy of understanding.
Oh, and if you are serving beef: a little fresh garlic, cilantro and horseradish would be nice.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dwgib
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023
Posts: 280
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Richard III wrote: | | Same question I have for all collectors is, do you realize that there might be people out there looking for what you just bought? And they actually want that horn to play it. If your intent is to play them all, then no problem. My beef is with the people who collect them to just have them. |
Trust me, there are plenty of them out there, so no one's losing out. As a matter of fact, most of ones I buy, to get for a good price, need repair, and i do that, then play them. Not a communist society, yet, you know, so, if I can afford it, I can buy it, so I can try it before I go. And I give the ones I'm done with to school kids that can't afford them. That process is a bit tricky because so many want new & shiny, so only to students that know what they are.
_________________
Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dwgib
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023
Posts: 280
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | Wow, talk about vastly different horns!
If you seek to understand the impact of design on performance, a broad dataset is required. Be patient. Make a list, know what the goals are. Watch for opportunity.
Rome wasn't built in a day (nor was a certain private Canadian collection of over 6000 instruments) |
I just seek to find ones I like the sound and playability of. Until this year I only owned 3 trumpets, a King Cleveland in 7th-10th grade, A Bach Stradivarius I bout for myself in 10th grade, and an old 1920's Holton my Mom bought me when I was 30. The last 2 were stolen, the 1st traded in for the Bach. My Mom died last month and I started thinking about that Holton wishing I still had it because it was from her, and a surprise out of the blue on one of my visits home from the USAF. Anyway, that just got me going, and started my search for MY perfect horn. Just a bit slow on a low budget, but have learned a lot of stats and history about them, but that can't transfer into playing them. So on I go.
My favorites so far are a 1927 King Liberty, a 64 Martin imperial, a 1940 Conn 22B NYS and a 1927 York 40
_________________
Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dwgib
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023
Posts: 280
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
But to make that possible, COLLECTORS and HISTORIANS need to research. That means buying a LOT of horns. If we cannot compare and contrast them directly, how can we offer credible data to the rest of the community? Collectors are not just hoarders. Collectors are mostly scholars and people who give of their time and treasure to try and leave a legacy of understanding.
Oh, and if you are serving beef: a little fresh garlic, cilantro and horseradish would be nice. |
Well said, and why I'm asking opinions of those that know the horns I'm asking about, mostly just to direct my sequence of value. I've likely read 100's of pages of data on trumpets in the last couple months, re-read a lot because my memory is not what it used to be, and a lot of opinions on weights, dime trick, leadpipes, bores and bells, etc.
_________________
Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dwgib
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023
Posts: 280
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | Wow, talk about vastly different horns!
If you seek to understand the impact of design on performance, a broad dataset is required. Be patient. Make a list, know what the goals are. Watch for opportunity.
Rome wasn't built in a day (nor was a certain private Canadian collection of over 6000 instruments) |
That's kinda what I'm doing, but get sidetracked by curiosity sometimes(that why I have a HB Jay and a Tonk Sterling, a Pan American and an American Knight(quite nice I must say for what it is) and too many Conns, couldn't resist the curiosity for the price and not much to read on them, so to know, you have to actually have them in hand)
_________________
Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dwgib
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023
Posts: 280
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'd love it if there were 1 site, where you could look down a table by brand, by line, by year, and see the bore size, bell size, type wrap, type tuning slide(single/dual radius braced/unbraced),columns for features like stop rod, 3rd slide stop rod, type valves, valve design(top/bottom internal/external springs), gapless versus gapped receiver and maybe some other identifying features (silver/brass/etc.)
Sorta like take brass-history, trumpet-history, hornucopia, combined and boil them down to a spreadsheet
_________________
Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dwgib
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023
Posts: 280
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Funny idea, i was just thinking, I bet you could do a sort of rating system based on how many cubic feet of air that will go through a trumpet, then do the same for mouthpieces. It wouldn't really mean anything except it would give a sort of comparison horn to horn on their design/resistance for players who know what they like.
Anyway, off topic, just had to write down
_________________
Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
huntman10
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017
Posts: 685
Location: Texas South Plains
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dwgib wrote: | Funny idea, i was just thinking, I bet you could do a sort of rating system based on how many cubic feet of air that will go through a trumpet, then do the same for mouthpieces. It wouldn't really mean anything except it would give a sort of comparison horn to horn on their design/resistance for players who know what they like.
Anyway, off topic, just had to write down |
So.... Then we go to some Artificial Intelligence app that sends you your perfect horn and mouthpiece, which you WILL PLAY APPRECIATE.... Kinda like getting someone to pick your spouse..... Or not.
I am one of those evil horn hoarders, sorta. Although I do sell a few here and there. I look at it like I get them, clean and preserve them for a period of time, and eventually get them back in service.
But one flaw I see in the OP's plan: it often takes me longer than a month to prep, clean, tweak and test a horn to appreciate it's full potential. Give those babies the love they deserve before moving along.
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dwgib
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023
Posts: 280
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| huntman10 wrote: |
So.... Then we go to some Artificial Intelligence app that sends you your perfect horn and mouthpiece, which you WILL PLAY APPRECIATE.... Kinda like getting someone to pick your spouse..... Or not.
I am one of those evil horn hoarders, sorta. Although I do sell a few here and there. I look at it like I get them, clean and preserve them for a period of time, and eventually get them back in service.
But one flaw I see in the OP's plan: it often takes me longer than a month to prep, clean, tweak and test a horn to appreciate it's full potential. Give those babies the love they deserve before moving along. |
LOL, yeah, add AI to predict what the design will play like!
You know, you could probably do that,putting in detailed design with sound of each note. I guess it can find research on how sound works, etc.
Yeah, I don't play as much as I should or like to. I have a current overload because I've been sort of obsessed recently and having a curiosity for the unusual not necessarily the popular, I've been able to buy some obscure horns rather cheap, so ended up with like 20 now in the last few months, like my Tonk and HB Jay, too many Conns, but got a really cool military special order (2B/22B large bore) one by accident (1st time ever bid 2 days before auction ended just to see where it stood because I thought it'd go really high and my $200 bid held). So, anyway, now I'm thinking the ones I haven't gone after because average price is high, I'll try to get 1 a month. Missed a good priced 1950's Olds Special yesterday. I wanted to get one made while both Reynolds and Kunstul were working there.
_________________
Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Johnny-Highnote
Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 264
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dwgib wrote: |
I give the ones I'm done with to school kids that can't afford them. That process is a bit tricky because so many want new & shiny, so only to students that know what they are. |
That's great  I did this sometimes-just let them compare a shiny
Chinese something (yeah i know some of these are pretty good....)
to a old Getzen 300 or Yamaha 4320 or Ambassador etc.
To see the Faces when the learning curve works is priceless
_________________
Greatings from Germany
Dennis
38b "Frankenconn" with Bauerfeind Valve block/ Yamaha 6345G /Yamaha 631/Courtois 154G / Curry+Klier 1,5 mpc`s |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dwgib
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2023
Posts: 280
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | Wow, talk about vastly different horns!
If you seek to understand the impact of design on performance, a broad dataset is required. Be patient. Make a list, know what the goals are. Watch for opportunity.
Rome wasn't built in a day (nor was a certain private Canadian collection of over 6000 instruments) |
Since I assume that's your collection, might you happen to have an opinion on the difference between a 1968 Olds Recording. good original shape and a 1954 Olds Super, restored or in great original shape if both were the same price?
_________________
Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GeorgeB
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016
Posts: 1063
Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
All the horns the OP mentioned are known as good players. I have never owned a Martin but I do own an Olds Recording and a King Super 20 Silversonic. I do play every horn in my collection, but my favorites are the Recording and King, and there is something about a sterling silver , gold washed bell that makes the King my overall favorite as far as sound goes. But in a nutshell, all my horns are good players and I enjoy playing each and every one.
But if the OP wants a GOOD Recording, Martin or King Super 20, then be prepared to pay.
George
_________________
GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dwgib wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | Wow, talk about vastly different horns!
If you seek to understand the impact of design on performance, a broad dataset is required. Be patient. Make a list, know what the goals are. Watch for opportunity.
Rome wasn't built in a day (nor was a certain private Canadian collection of over 6000 instruments) |
Since I assume that's your collection, might you happen to have an opinion on the difference between a 1968 Olds Recording. good original shape and a 1954 Olds Super, restored or in great original shape if both were the same price? |
No, my collection is quite modest by comparison. That belongs to a college professor (and I'm American).
Still, I can offer some insights on your question: Recordings are rather unique. As players, they are a "love it or hate it" model for most. They have a lighter, harder bell that is tempered by its alloy, and being heard comes fairly easy. The tone can be a bit edgy, though its not the usual bright & edgy of other horns. It is not as responsive as I would expect given the construction, but on the flip-side it is thus more stable. I find the intonation to be a little challenging, but not bad. The feel of holding the horn with the offset middle valve and the long reach to the valve block is uncomfortable for me - but others like it.
The Super you mention is after they became a little heavier, so Supers of this period do not have the same bright penetrating sound of the wartime and prior Supers. Still, they are a very good all-around horn, with a middle-of-the-road efficiency (think "resistance", which is how much energy it takes to achieve a given volume at your ear and has nothing to do with volumetric flow, as that is regulated entirely by the mouthpiece throat, not the horn). Supers of this period are flexible in tone, very mouthpiece sensitive, and project decently, but not with the same ease as the early ones. Intonation has been excellent on the Supers I have encountered - for their time.
The hitch with any vintage horn of course is prior repair. If the bell has been work hardened, or if the leadpipe has been distorted by damage and straightening, all bets are off with any horn. Those issues will radically alter every aspect of how the horn behaves.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yamahaguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3992
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dwgib wrote: | | Since I assume that's your collection, might you happen to have an opinion on the difference between a 1968 Olds Recording. good original shape and a 1954 Olds Super, restored or in great original shape if both were the same price? |
I can speak from my experience on this...I currently own 3 Supers- a '46, '55, and '68.
A friend of mine has 2 Recordings I tried- a '59 and '69.
While there were definitely similarities in sound, each did have it's unique voice. And the weights of each horn varied as well which was fascinating, but I can PM you about what I discovered (it's quite lengthy).
The "balanced" construction of the Recording doesn't jive with me, and the overall sound seemed bland compared to my Supers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jeirvine
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2022
Posts: 336
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
Where are you located? You may be near friendly members/players who would let you try out their horns. I am in Baltimore, MD USA, and I've got everything on your list except a Super 20. If you're anywhere close, drop a line and you can give them a blow.
-J
_________________
1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
1996 Bach 37 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1825
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
If I had the money, I would pursue an "Artist Horn" plan.
Model of trumpets that Harry James played, Armstrong, Doc , MF etc.
Try to show the progression of thought - sound change - stuff like that.
Might also need to include mouthpieces. Link the combinations with specific recordings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Goby
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 650
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Between the Martin Committee and Olds Recording, I prefer the Committee. The Olds Recording is a really beautiful and unique horn, but I have never been particularly impressed by the sound. It isn't as vibrant as a Super, and it doesn't have the depth of a Committee. The Olds is a far superior instrument in terms of build quality. The Committee has its own unique aesthetic, and is much more sleek versus the ornate details of the Olds. The Committee has more provenance, being used by almost too many famous jazz musicians to list. The Olds Recording doesn't boast as many famous endorsements from jazz musicians (just Booker Little as far as I know), but the connection between Olds and the golden era of Hollywood studio players is quite noteworthy. I have never owned a King Super 20, but I have played a few for a brief amount of time and thought they were very nice instruments. You might want to consider the King 1055T Silver Flair as well if you are looking for a vintage King trumpet. They can be had for a bit cheaper and are really fantastic instruments. If you're a Harry James fan, the Super 20 Dual Bore should definitely be on your list. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
