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Opinions pls: Martin Comm vs King Super 20 vs Olds Recording


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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
If you're a Harry James fan, the Super 20 Dual Bore should definitely be on your list.


I am a Harry James fan and that is exactly why I bought mine, so I couldn't agree more with what you said, Goby.

My understanding is that Harry played that King model from 1958 until his death in 1983, and those were some of his best years on the trumpet.
George
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:

The hitch with any vintage horn of course is prior repair. If the bell has been work hardened, or if the leadpipe has been distorted by damage and straightening, all bets are off with any horn. Those issues will radically alter every aspect of how the horn behaves.


Thanks, great info, and as to repair, I'm sure you're right and I agree. I recently looked at a Olds Special at a decent price, but it had a pic of what looked like a crack in the bell that was repaired, asked the seller if it was a crack, and he got really indignant about it, saying the horn was fine, the repair was good. I moved on bc it obviously wouldn't be fine, no way a soldered crack in the bell wouldn't be much different from original.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
If I had the money, I would pursue an "Artist Horn" plan.
Model of trumpets that Harry James played, Armstrong, Doc , MF etc.

Try to show the progression of thought - sound change - stuff like that.
Might also need to include mouthpieces. Link the combinations with specific recordings.

I'm a fan, especially Harry James and Louis Armstrong, but not that knowledgeable on their recordings. Matter of fact, seeing Armstrong live at Constitution hall in 1968 is what got me playing trumpet in the first place. I used to have a reel to reel recording I took that day on a kid's reel to reel tape recorder(yeah, I'm old), but lost it over time. That's the reason I bought my Tonk Sterling, like his first horn he said in a 1966 interview I read, he bought at his uncle's pawn shop for $10. Actually plays nice, too, lol.
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamahaguy wrote:


While there were definitely similarities in sound, each did have it's unique voice. And the weights of each horn varied as well which was fascinating, but I can PM you about what I discovered (it's quite lengthy).

The "balanced" construction of the Recording doesn't jive with me, and the overall sound seemed bland compared to my Supers.


Thanks, love to read whatever you have. I was actually leaning toward the Super myself, from thoughts expressed here and elsewhere, but had also heard many rave about the Recording.
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Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
Between the Martin Committee and Olds Recording, I prefer the Committee. The Olds Recording is a really beautiful and unique horn, but I have never been particularly impressed by the sound. It isn't as vibrant as a Super, and it doesn't have the depth of a Committee. The Olds is a far superior instrument in terms of build quality. The Committee has its own unique aesthetic, and is much more sleek versus the ornate details of the Olds. The Committee has more provenance, being used by almost too many famous jazz musicians to list. The Olds Recording doesn't boast as many famous endorsements from jazz musicians (just Booker Little as far as I know), but the connection between Olds and the golden era of Hollywood studio players is quite noteworthy. I have never owned a King Super 20, but I have played a few for a brief amount of time and thought they were very nice instruments. You might want to consider the King 1055T Silver Flair as well if you are looking for a vintage King trumpet. They can be had for a bit cheaper and are really fantastic instruments. If you're a Harry James fan, the Super 20 Dual Bore should definitely be on your list.


I'm definitely leaning to the Olds Super and the Martin Committee is on my list in the future,(after I save a couple months or so maybe) I have a 1964 Imperial now that is great. I do own a vintage King Liberty from 1927, and I love it. It, the Martin, and my 1940 Conn 22B New York Symphony are my favorites.
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Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
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Martin Imperial('64)
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeirvine wrote:
Where are you located? You may be near friendly members/players who would let you try out their horns. I am in Baltimore, MD USA, and I've got everything on your list except a Super 20. If you're anywhere close, drop a line and you can give them a blow.
-J


Thanks for the offer, I may take you up on it after I get some transportation going besides my motorcycle and get some practice(I'd only embarrass myself now as I just started playing again 3 months ago after many year hiatus)
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Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
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Martin Imperial('64)
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotta slow down on the trumpet buying, just got a 1947 Holton 45 and a 1933 Conn 10B delivered today. I think I've developed an addiction, but for $100 each, couldn't resist.
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Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19)


Last edited by dwgib on Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you've got the bread and the interest why not? As long as you're not depriving anyone

For me, an instrument's a tool for making music. As long as I have that, I'm happy - with the tools not my performance, LOL.

Hobby - an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.
Addiction - physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance (or thing).
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
If you've got the bread and the interest why not? As long as you're not depriving anyone

For me, an instrument's a tool for making music. As long as I have that, I'm happy - with the tools not my performance, LOL.

Hobby - an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.
Addiction - physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance (or thing).


Yeah, it does give me pleasure, and keeps me busy from other bad habits, but now my skill and lip needs to rise to the level of some of these horns. Always been an antique admirer, but only things still functional/useful. Just played the Holton 45, love it, really easy to play, very good mellow tone. Conn 10B is my 1st reverse wrap, very pretty in it's silver and art deco engravings, large bore, small bell, very trumpety 20's jazz sound. The obvious quality of construction in both is amazing, especially for $100, original cases, 2 original period Conn mpc w period original Conn mute(even a place in the case made for the mute). You can tell the plating on the Conn is so thick, I bet there's $100 worth of silver there, lol.
Anyway, sorry going off topic, just excited, 1st pro Holton & 1st reverse wrap horn.
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Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
I'm definitely leaning to the Olds Super and the Martin Committee is on my list in the future,(after I save a couple months or so maybe) I have a 1964 Imperial now that is great.
Messaged you, and would love to hear your thoughts on the Imperial! Besides the Supers, I have a Committee as well and enjoy talking shop on these fine horns!
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plankowner110
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib,
Don't overlook the Selmer K-Modified (Paris) trumpet for your collection. The Selmer was extremely popular in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s.
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jlambmusic
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With a budget of around $1200, I think you should be able to acquire any of these horns with the exception of the Martin Committee model trumpet (which has lowered in resale price as of late, but you will still have a hardtime finding one under $1600).

The Olds Recording gets my vote here, I have played all the horns you mentioned and the horn I found the most versatile was the Olds Recording.

That being said, there are other fine vintage trumpets in that price point like the 1930s Martin Handraft Imperal, Selmer Paris, Olds Super ect.
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JHirakawa
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live just west of Chicago and there are a ton of Estate Sales in the area. The people who run the sales may know vintage watches and vases, but they don't know squat about trumpets. I started looking about 7 years ago when my daughter said she wanted to play a trumpet in her 6th grade band. That's when I found the Olds Custom Crafted on Craigs list and the Conn 22b on ebay. The other 3 trumpets in the photo fell into my hands within the past year. All 5 horns have nice valves with very good compression, no red rot, and are dent free. The Benge and Holton have lacquer wear, but the valves had been replated and look brand new. The Conn is raw brass. I got the 1946 Committee at an estate sale just yesterday. It's just amazing. Lacquer is almost flawless. no scratches, no dents, great valves with really nice compression.
Left to right: 1946 Martin Committee, estate sale, $1,100 w/case; 1948 Chicago Benge, estate sale, $1,000-w/case; 1947 Holton 48, $280-Goodwill; 1969 Olds Custom Crafted, Craigs list, $125-w/case; 1947 Conn 22b, $100-ebay, w/case. I certainly didn't need more horns, but when I saw the condition of the Benge, Holton, and the Martin, I just couldn't pass at the prices they were listed. I only kept the horns that were special. I picked up several others that I flipped (for a nice profit) after I got the valves and slides unstuck and the horns cleaned; including a Blessing ML1, two Kanstul French Besson Internationals, a Martin Handcrafted Standard, a Schilke B2, plus a few other odds and ends. I traded my daughters' King intermediate trumpet and a very nice Besson silver 10-10 trombone that I got at goodwill for a mint Benge 3 Flugelhorn. My everyday horns are a Kanstul French Besson Classic b-flat (near mint w/kanstul double horn case for $499, ebay) and a Kanstul French Besson Classic C trumpet unused, mint condition, ebay, buy now, $750). So there certainly are sleepers out there to be had within your price range, at lease in my neck of the woods. (I paid less than $300 in total for all 4 of the cornets on my list. But that's another story.) Good luck with your quest.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/5_Vintage_trumpets.jpg
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwgib wrote:
I've likely read 100's of pages of data on trumpets in the last couple months, ,. . and a lot of opinions on weights, dime trick, leadpipes, bores and bells, etc.

Read about 'em? Play 'em.
"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
dwgib wrote:
I've likely read 100's of pages of data on trumpets in the last couple months, ,. . and a lot of opinions on weights, dime trick, leadpipes, bores and bells, etc.

Read about 'em? Play 'em.
"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."


Well, had to read about them to decide which to buy. Also interesting in ways to change the sound/playing of specific horns, for better or worse depending on your opinion. Also interesting about design concepts of bore to bell size you can get an idea of what type of sound a horn will have. All necessary when buying off the web when you can't try before you buy.
_________________
Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19)
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JHirakawa wrote:
I live just west of Chicago and there are a ton of Estate Sales in the area. The people who run the sales may know vintage watches and vases, but they don't know squat about trumpets. I started looking about 7 years ago when my daughter said she wanted to play a trumpet in her 6th grade band. That's when I found the Olds Custom Crafted on Craigs list and the Conn 22b on ebay. The other 3 trumpets in the photo fell into my hands within the past year. All 5 horns have nice valves with very good compression, no red rot, and are dent free. The Benge and Holton have lacquer wear, but the valves had been replated and look brand new. The Conn is raw brass. I got the 1946 Committee at an estate sale just yesterday. It's just amazing. Lacquer is almost flawless. no scratches, no dents, great valves with really nice compression.
Left to right: 1946 Martin Committee, estate sale, $1,100 w/case; 1948 Chicago Benge, estate sale, $1,000-w/case; 1947 Holton 48, $280-Goodwill; 1969 Olds Custom Crafted, Craigs list, $125-w/case; 1947 Conn 22b, $100-ebay, w/case. I certainly didn't need more horns, but when I saw the condition of the Benge, Holton, and the Martin, I just couldn't pass at the prices they were listed. I only kept the horns that were special. I picked up several others that I flipped (for a nice profit) after I got the valves and slides unstuck and the horns cleaned; including a Blessing ML1, two Kanstul French Besson Internationals, a Martin Handcrafted Standard, a Schilke B2, plus a few other odds and ends. I traded my daughters' King intermediate trumpet and a very nice Besson silver 10-10 trombone that I got at goodwill for a mint Benge 3 Flugelhorn. My everyday horns are a Kanstul French Besson Classic b-flat (near mint w/kanstul double horn case for $499, ebay) and a Kanstul French Besson Classic C trumpet unused, mint condition, ebay, buy now, $750). So there certainly are sleepers out there to be had within your price range, at lease in my neck of the woods. (I paid less than $300 in total for all 4 of the cornets on my list. But that's another story.) Good luck with your quest.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/5_Vintage_trumpets.jpg


Very nice! Since I first posted this I've since acquired a 1954 Olds Super in perfect original condition($630)
, a 1951 Holton 48 Deluxe Military contract needs 2 bottom caps($165)
, and a 1950 King Super 20 S1($308)
Love them all. Also got a 1932 Buescher Aristocrat(1st year made) that's a little banged up, but plays great ($45)
_________________
Olds Super('54)
Conn Military Spec('32)
Conn 22B('24;'41)
Holton Military 48('51)
Holton 45 ('47)
Pan American 66B('31)
King Liberty('25,'29,'34 Silvertone)
Martin Imperial('64)
Tonk Sterling('19)
H.B.Jay Columbia('19)


Last edited by dwgib on Sat Jul 15, 2023 1:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one in the top image looks like a Super to me, not a Special. Am I missing something?
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
The one in the top image looks like a Super to me, not a Special. Am I missing something?


No, the one on top is an Olds Special. They have that (copper? ) tone ring. The King Super doesn't.

George
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1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
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2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet


Last edited by GeorgeB on Sat Jul 15, 2023 1:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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dwgib
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
The one in the top image looks like a Super to me, not a Special. Am I missing something?

No, I meant Super, don't know why I wrote special.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks dwgib, that’s what I thought.

George I think you have it reversed, the Olds Super is the one with the tone ring and the Special has the two piece/two tone bell. Don’t know how King horns come into the picture.
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