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Interesting concept on how to use tongue for range.


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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:50 am    Post subject: Interesting concept on how to use tongue for range. Reply with quote

This is an interesting way of thinking about how to use your tongue for range. Any thoughts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO_bHidLCoY&t=499s
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you referring specifically to the '3 locations' discussion that begins at timestamp 8:19 (499s)?

My understanding from that section is that it highlights the various 'positional controls' that can be used to activate the muscles that affect the tongue. And the activation of those muscles has effect on the entire embouchure including lip tensions and positions. The method of 'using the tongue' to control embouchure and pitch is centered on learning the feeling, and training the ability to activate those muscles to help produce the necessary embouchure changes.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the use of the tongue for range is nothing new. I just found his way of relating wind length to string length an interesting way of looking at it.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
... I just found his way of relating wind length to string length an interesting way of looking at it.

------------------------------
I didn't see anything in that section (begin at 8:19) regarding 'string length' or 'wind length'.

For pitch control utilizing tongue activation, the important consideration is how the position and tension of the lips and teeth are affected - nothing to do with the measurable 'length' of the distance from the lips to a portion of the tongue.

If a player is able to find a personal useful way to imagine and control their tongue through use of 'length' imagery, that could help them. But it's just 'getting the feeling' of where and how to use the muscles - nothing about the 'length' of anything.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

String/Air analogy starts at about 2:25.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks to me like he is using the idea of 'string length' because of the coincidental location of his muscle activation feelings that he calls 'focal points' being somewhat similar to string vibration ratios.

If using that imagery helps to learn and control the muscle activation, then fine - but it would be incorrect teaching to say that it 'works the same as changing the length of a string'.

It probably has more to do with the 'nearness' of the 'focal points' to the lips - due to the amount of lip change that results from muscle activation at the various points.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the string analogy, acoustically correct or not, is a nice one. One other take-away I got from that was thinking of "lisping" when forming the tongue in its foremost position.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Any thoughts?


Quasi-technical nonsense. He's tensioning the lips to ascend just like all players (who can ascend) do.

The frequency of any resonance modes for such oral postures are so FAR above the pitches played and so weak as to be inconsequential. To claim that those directly control the pitches played (not the lip posture) is beyond absurd and pure fantasy.
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ldwoods
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not follow or understand what he is talking about in the video. Can someone elaborate or explain what is meant my "moving focal point" and "half whistle"?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I understand it, he's just using the imagery of the tongue positions being analogous to string subdivisions.

In other words, the tongue being in these three positions: the tongue unobstructed (awhh), the tongue in the middle of the mouth (eee) and the tongue being in its foremost position (thhee) as a string may have analogous positions as "open" string, string cut in half, string cut in fourth.

String positions, "open - half-quarter
and tongue, awhh-eee-thhee.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ldwoods wrote:
... Can someone elaborate or explain what is meant my "moving focal point" and "half whistle"?

----------------
My understanding -

moving focal point - I think he means where in his mouth / on his tongue he feels the muscular 'pull' of forcing the tongue into certain positions.

half whistle - apparently he sometimes positions his lips in a manner similar to what he uses for whistling. I have noticed a similar feeling (but I don't know about the actual position) for notes in my high range. My goal being to position the upper lip so it CAN vibrate at the desired pitch, AND be able to produce an airflow to make it vibrate.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last Sarurday, I was fortunate to go to a master clinic featuring Roger Ingram and Brad Goode.
They talked about many things but since both have extraordinary range, let it be said they talked more about the air needed than where their tongue was.
Let it be said that when two masters speak, what is said here is mostly just assumption.

R. Tomasek
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
... Let it be said that when two masters speak, what is said here is mostly just assumption. ...

-----------------------------
Yep,
many times I've 'heard what they said' and sort-of think that I understood what they meant - but it's difficult to find a way to write a concise description (or transcription) that might be helpful to someone else.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
. . . let it be said they talked more about the air needed than where their tongue was.

Doesn't the tongue affect the air?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:

Doesn't the tongue affect the air?

------------------------------------------
If you provide the 'needed air', then the position of the tongue is irrelevant unless the tongue is inhibiting the production of the needed air flow.

The lip aperture needs to be 'right' and the air needs a path to reach it. The tongue can help in production of the aperture, but as far as air flow is concerned - the tongue can only get in the way.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
kehaulani wrote:

Doesn't the tongue affect the air?

------------------------------------------
If you provide the 'needed air', then the position of the tongue is irrelevant unless the tongue is inhibiting the production of the needed air flow.

The lip aperture needs to be 'right' and the air needs a path to reach it. The tongue can help in production of the aperture, but as far as air flow is concerned - the tongue can only get in the way.
I find the opposite true for me. The tongue has nothing to do with the "production of the aperture" but has to do with everything else. Articulation, pitch, tone color, dynamics.

I don't know what you mean by "production of the aperture." The aperture is framed and formed by the embouchure muscles.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Vin DiBona wrote:
. . . let it be said they talked more about the air needed than where their tongue was.

Doesn't the tongue affect the air?
Definitely the tongue affects the air. You can play a short note without even using your lungs. Just spitting the air in your mouth using your tongue.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As there were many younger players in there (high school and under), Brad went around showing how much air he really needed to play a very strong high G - which he demonstrated - and it was powerful and loud. They were amazed at how little flow was really needed to play up there.

They both said tongue position is very important for the upper register. Roger compared it to an air compressor at a gas station. The compressor provides a flow of high pressure, but the nozzle kicks the air out with controlled velocity.

That's all I will say about this. You had to be there.

R. Tomasek
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Definitely the tongue affects the air. You can play a short note without even using your lungs. Just spitting the air in your mouth using your tongue.


When you seal-off the lung air pressure and lip opening you can raise the oral air pressure using the cheeks, jaw and tongue. When playing from lung air pressure the same tongue action will not further increase the air pressure.

Quote:
Roger compared it to an air compressor at a gas station. The compressor provides a flow of high pressure, but the nozzle kicks the air out with controlled velocity.


Whatever that means. By nozzle is he referring to the lip aperture?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
...
I don't know what you mean by "production of the aperture." The aperture is framed and formed by the embouchure muscles.

----------------------------
I used the term 'production of the aperture' in a global sense to mean all of the various items that are employed to achieve the status of the aperture when actually playing.
Some of those items are:
- jaw position
- teeth separation
- tension of the muscles around and near the mouth
- position of the tongue on the lips

Without using a mouthpiece, I can gently and carefully place my fingers on my upper and lower lips and feel lip changes when I move my tongue. The amount of lip change is proportional to the amount of muscle effort I use to move and position my tongue. When I move my tongue with strong muscle effort there is noticeable lip change - without any conscious thought or effort to move my lips.
The muscles that move the tongue interact with many of the other 'embouchure muscles' - it's a complicated system with many moving parts.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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