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Frankenhorn



 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 12:40 pm    Post subject: Frankenhorn Reply with quote

I put a horn together using a Schilke B5 Berrylium bell, a Lotus P1 leadpipe and tuning slide and an old Yamaha 635 valve block. I did not realize the block was a large .463 bore. (Mea culpa!)

My problem is I am playing very flat in upper register and slotting is all over the place. I am thinking that the reason most likely is the large bore. Would I be correct? I have played other large bore horns and had similar problems.

The guy that put the horn together said that he could install a choke that might help or I could find a ML .459 valve block.

Any thoughts on whether either one of these options would be a solution?

Also, is there a particular valve block I could be looking at? I have at my disposal a Carol Brass 5000, Yamaha 6310 Shew, Bach Mercedes II and Blessing 127 beginner trumpet.

Thank you for any advice.
CA
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Bill Blackwell
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the block is the issue by itself. Depending on how your frankenhorn was put together, you could have solder blobs (or gunk) throughout the tubing that should be cleaned out - or air leaks at the joints. And the valve alignment could be out of whack. However, if the tubing is .460 and the block is .463 the alignment could be moot.

Any one of these issues (or a combination thereof) could cause intonation issues throughout the range of the horn.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a .463" block would not have anything to do with this. Its not different enough to matter (Holton for decades built great horns in 8 bores, but only 3 valve block bores). Depending how severe the issues are, if you want to look for assembly errors (blobs & leaks), a bore scope and a flashlight can be very useful.

Beyond that, intonation characteristics, and the slotting inconsistency you mention would align with mis-matching the leadpipe to the bell - which I think is the case. The relationship of the tapers of the leadpipe to the tapers of the bell are critical. The great designers of the past like Schilke, Autrey, Walters, Ecker, etc. all knew the "magic" math for plotting optimal relationships between tapers - or "matching a leadpipe to a bell".

In this instance, you have used a pipe that is normally paired with some fairly modern and distinctive large bells, and matched it to a tighter taper bell most closely related to ancient Besson design (though still a little wider). The odds of a successful match were low. And I think that is exactly where a big part of your issue will be found.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not the bore. 463 is not particularly big.
I would get a better valve block, mostly because those old Yamaha blocks are clunky and leaky.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not familiar with that brand of leadpipe but I'd strap on others to try as a possible easy fix.
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J. Landress Brass
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like leaky valves and length problems.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did your tech measure the inside diameter of the bell tail - where it enters the valve block?

Also - what is the inside diameter of your lower tuning slide tube?

Next check your mouthpiece/leadpipe gap.

Lots of things can be made to work but you need some resistance somewhere in the horn / gap / and or mouthpiece throat and backbore system.
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mr oakmount
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can rule out leaks (take out the first valve slide, shut the outlet (usually the top one) with your thumb, blow into the mouthpice, listen for hissing air and feeling for decreasing air pressure), a "choke" might actually help.

My Adams A5 had very flat c#, d, d# and e on the stave. My trumpet builder/tech took a bit of very thin tubing that fitted (after some polishing) perfectly into the inside of the main tunig slide, thus reducing the diameter a bit and adding more mass.

We tested both the top and the bottom tube of the tunig slide. Both positions solved the problem with the tuning. Both solidified slotting. However, the bottom position changed the sound a lot and made the "blow" feel very tight. Inserting the tube into the top slide rendered a good compromise. It did change the sound and blow slightly, but in a way I actually like.

Good luck with your project!
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gord-o
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like the previous posters said, check for leaks. Waterkey corks are notorious for making any horn play off. Also check the soldering for leaks.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've built more than one Frankenhorn, and the last one was the Kanstul Besson that I wrote a post about:

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=155974

The leadpipe is perhaps the most critical taper in the instrument and there's mystery about why some work and a lot of others don't. It's a similar sort of mystery as to why some backbores are great, when they don't measure any differently than others that are allegedly the same.

So I think I had three or four pipes to choose from for this project and one was much better than the rest.

Explore the "X" factor.
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2023 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Literally, a "Rubik's Cube" kind of conundrum.
Daunting.
Soooo many variables.

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