Different Bach configurations

[Louise Finch]

As I keep saying, I'm definitely sticking with my Yamaha Xeno II trumpet, but I'd still be interested in trying the new 190 series if and when they ever all get to the UK in one place.

My understanding is that the new 190 models are:

19037
19037X
19043
19065GV
19072V
19072X (Commercially orientated)

I'd like to play test them not knowing which model is which, so that I can discover which if any of the models I like.

As someone who likes the Bach S184ML cornet and Bach S183 flugel, but have been rather non plussed so far with the Bach 37, but maybe haven't played enough of them, do you have any predictions which if any of the models I may like enough to maybe get my loved Xeno II out of my hands, since a few on here lol, definitely seem to think that I should prefer a Bach trumpet and only prefer my Yamaha because I haven't tried a good Bach?

After Friday, I will have tried three 37/25 recently. All the new 190s should be good, so it will be very interesting to find out whether I haven't yet played a very good Bach, or whether as I suspect, the 37/25 may just not be my favourite.

I wonder whether I will like the Vindabonas, as the 19072V is stated as being more cornet like and me being very much a cornet girl at heart, but maybe not, as what I like about my Xeno II, is that it is very much my idea of what a trumpet should sound and play like, and in my opinion, it neither plays or sounds remotely like cornet.

Many thanks

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Andy Del]

A ‘feature’ of Bach’s is that they vary, so you can find that perfect horn. Of course, some say this is just cr@p manufacturing standards, but hey…

If you don’t like Bach 37, don’t beat yourself up, try something that has a richer sound, like a 72, or even 65. Or try Schilke, B&S…

I’m just wondering what I would think of looking at now Kanstul is done and dusted. BAC, maybe…
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[Louise Finch]

[JWG]

One question: What do you believe makes a trumpet and cornet different?

I had erroneously believed from brass "folklore" that trumpets sounded brighter and projected more due to having more cylindrical bores and cornets sounded warmer and projected less due to having more conical bores.

Then, during my comeback after 25 years off, I read a scientific survey paper proving the folklore wrong on both counts!

The survey measured the receiver-to-bell bore tapers of hundreds of different trumpets and cornets from the past century and discovered that trumpets had more conical bores due to their single wrap resulting in a longer bell from first valve onward and that cornets had more cylindrical bores due to their double wrap design resulting in shorter bells from first valve onward and due to the manufacturing necessity to use more cylindrical tubing to achieve a double wrap.

Economically, manufacturers realized that it made no sense to use gradually increasing tubing from the receiver to the bell on a double wrap design, because, when they did, their costs rose. For this reason, there exist very few trumpets and cornets using an expanding bore design before entering the valve block. To my knowledge, Vincent Bach first implemented an expanding-bore design on trumpet due to the ability to more easily use different sizes of straight tubing on either side of the curved tubing on the tuning slide.

So, if cornets have a more cylindrical bores than trumpets, why do they sound warmer?

The answer to that question can be found in looking at the differences between the Kruspe and the Geyer layouts for french horns. The Geyer layout puts the Bb rotor inline with the 1-2-3 valve block resulting in a cleaner wrap with fewer turns and a brighter instrument. The Kruspe layout puts the Bb rotor well offset from the 1-2-3 valve block resulting in a far more convoluted wrap with many more turns and a darker instrument.

From this we get our answer . . . A cornet has a warmer tone than a trumpet due to its double wrap and not from having a more conical bore.

Reflecting on what happens to a standing sound wave in a curved tube rather than a straight tube, the straight tube does not distort the wave and sustains more high frequencies whereas a curved tube both stretches and compresses the standing wave resulting in cancelling higher frequencies within the wave.

So, we should all think of the main difference between a trumpet and a cornet as the single versus the double wrap and the effect that an additional 360 degrees of curved tubing has on the standing wave.

To get a warmer tone from a single wrap instrument, we need to look at the French design of flugelhorn. It uses a short pipe to the valve block and then a very carefully constructed 360 degree wrap to the bell with an expanding bore and a large diameter bell to achieve its warm tone.

Quite frankly, Louise, I stand with you on disliking Vincent Bach's Besson-copy 37 bell compared to his larger bell designs of later years that provide a darker and bolder sounds. The 72 is a great all-around bell that plays warm yet lights up when pushed. The 65 bell is similar to what I have on my Wild Thing trumpet. The Wild Thing bell has such a large throat that it requires that I modify the set of mutes I use with it to maintain proper intonation.

As I have written repeatedly, the Wild Thing provides a wonderful platform to achieve any "color" of sound that one would want—from almost-flugelhorn dark to commercial bright—by merely changing mouthpieces. Cup, throat, and backbore dimensions have as much importance to one's sound as the horn itself. When required to emulate the now extinct "A Cornet" in orchestral settings, I often go up to my C trumpet for ease of transposition and then use an exceptionally deep cup, large throat mouthpiece.

Regarding the importance of mouthpieces, Bobby Shew once said that the mouthpiece is the "instrument" we play and that the trumpet we attach to the mouthpiece merely resonates what comes out of the mouthpiece.
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb with 1.5 Flip Oakes XT, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Flip Oakes C with 1.5 Flip Oakes TC & C mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF

[Subtropical and Subpar]

[Louise Finch]

All very interesting, thanks.

Although I'm not remotely doubting a word that you are saying, surely the leadpipe starts smaller on a cornet owing to the smaller end taper of a cornet mouthpiece. I'm not looking at my Bach 184ML cornet, but I'm pretty sure that the leadpipe has a narrower initial taper than my Bach 37. From memory, the leadpipe looks very narrower at the mouthpiece receiver end of the Bach 184ML (not so much on my Yamaha cornets).

Somewhere around the area of the end of the leadpipe/mouthpiece receiver of my Bach 184ML is so small in diameter, that I've had to cut the ball off the end of my HW Brass Saver (I've filed the cut very smooth) so that it can come out of the end of my Bach 184ML.

Although you've answered your own question, my answer would have been a narrower initial leadpipe taper, expanding to the same diameter as a trumpet where the tuning slide enters, and the different wrap with additional bends in the tubing.

Many thanks again

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Louise Finch]

[Rhondo]

There are posts here about the 72 bell and Vindabona Bachs before the new releases. I got the impression they were too much for some people to handle and not as versatile as the 37 or 43.

Is the now a Bach ‘Vindobona’ as opposed to ‘Vindabona’.

[Louise Finch]

[Rhondo]

[Louise Finch]

[Rhondo]

[Louise Finch]

[nieuwguyski]

[Subtropical and Subpar]

[Subtropical and Subpar]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

I'm looking forward to trying my colleague's Bach 37, to decide whether I just don't much care for the Bach 37 or whether this is something off with mine.

I had a quick blow on my Bach 37 this morning, since I had a very heavy blow Wednesday, had a break from playing yesterday, and have a lot of playing to do tonight.

I just played a few hymns, but I thought that I would analyse the sound in different rooms in the house, tiled kitchen, room with soft furnishings etc., and I don't know. I don't claim to be anything special as a player, but I feel that I have a good sound, and receive a fair number of compliments regarding my sound.

Since I naturally have a good sound, I could make a good sound on my Bach, but I just don't know. My Yamaha has a pure, clear, ringing sound with lots of resonance.

The Bach bells are described as follows:

https://bachloyalist.com/bach-trumpets-bells/

What I feel and hear is a quite uniform and strong sound, but it doesn't sound particularly ringing or resonant to me, like my Bach 184ML does. The sound also feels quite narrow and constrained, although not a bad sound in anyway, and whereas you can put gradually more air through my Yamaha Xeno II, and it brightens up and broadens, my Bach 37 doesn't seem to do this. It seems to maintain this focused sound.

I'm wondering whether I'd actually like the 43 bell more.

I think that tonight will be interesting, as although now I've dialled in my mouthpiece gap on my Bach 37, it plays well enough and sounds good enough, I'm not particularly keen on either how it plays or sounds. The blow and sound of my Xeno II are definitely more to my taste.

It wasn't so much the sound of my colleague's Bach 37* that I didn't like, more I didn't like the slottyness. Now I've reduced the mouthpiece gap a little, I would be interested in trying it again, along with other colleague's Bach 37.

Anyway, tonight will be interesting, and I'll let you know my further thoughts tomorrow.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs