• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Different Bach configurations


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 4:11 am    Post subject: Different Bach configurations Reply with quote

As I keep saying, I'm definitely sticking with my Yamaha Xeno II trumpet, but I'd still be interested in trying the new 190 series if and when they ever all get to the UK in one place.

My understanding is that the new 190 models are:

19037
19037X
19043
19065GV
19072V
19072X (Commercially orientated)

I'd like to play test them not knowing which model is which, so that I can discover which if any of the models I like.

As someone who likes the Bach S184ML cornet and Bach S183 flugel, but have been rather non plussed so far with the Bach 37, but maybe haven't played enough of them, do you have any predictions which if any of the models I may like enough to maybe get my loved Xeno II out of my hands, since a few on here lol, definitely seem to think that I should prefer a Bach trumpet and only prefer my Yamaha because I haven't tried a good Bach?

After Friday, I will have tried three 37/25 recently. All the new 190s should be good, so it will be very interesting to find out whether I haven't yet played a very good Bach, or whether as I suspect, the 37/25 may just not be my favourite.

I wonder whether I will like the Vindabonas, as the 19072V is stated as being more cornet like and me being very much a cornet girl at heart, but maybe not, as what I like about my Xeno II, is that it is very much my idea of what a trumpet should sound and play like, and in my opinion, it neither plays or sounds remotely like cornet.

Many thanks

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Del
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2669
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A ‘feature’ of Bach’s is that they vary, so you can find that perfect horn. Of course, some say this is just cr@p manufacturing standards, but hey…

If you don’t like Bach 37, don’t beat yourself up, try something that has a richer sound, like a 72, or even 65. Or try Schilke, B&S…

I’m just wondering what I would think of looking at now Kanstul is done and dusted. BAC, maybe…
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
A ‘feature’ of Bach’s is that they vary, so you can find that perfect horn. Of course, some say this is just cr@p manufacturing standards, but hey…

Thanks Andy. Yes, of course. I suppose this depends on whether we are talking about understandable natural variation between instruments that are either handcrafted or mass produced as carefully as possible v variation owing to inconsistent and sloppy production. I make no comments regarding Bach.

If you don’t like Bach 37, don’t beat yourself up, try something that has a richer sound, like a 72, or even 65. Or try Schilke, B&S…

Thanks very much.

I’m just wondering what I would think of looking at now Kanstul is done and dusted. BAC, maybe…

Take care and best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JWG
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One question: What do you believe makes a trumpet and cornet different?

I had erroneously believed from brass "folklore" that trumpets sounded brighter and projected more due to having more cylindrical bores and cornets sounded warmer and projected less due to having more conical bores.

Then, during my comeback after 25 years off, I read a scientific survey paper proving the folklore wrong on both counts!

The survey measured the receiver-to-bell bore tapers of hundreds of different trumpets and cornets from the past century and discovered that trumpets had more conical bores due to their single wrap resulting in a longer bell from first valve onward and that cornets had more cylindrical bores due to their double wrap design resulting in shorter bells from first valve onward and due to the manufacturing necessity to use more cylindrical tubing to achieve a double wrap.

Economically, manufacturers realized that it made no sense to use gradually increasing tubing from the receiver to the bell on a double wrap design, because, when they did, their costs rose. For this reason, there exist very few trumpets and cornets using an expanding bore design before entering the valve block. To my knowledge, Vincent Bach first implemented an expanding-bore design on trumpet due to the ability to more easily use different sizes of straight tubing on either side of the curved tubing on the tuning slide.

So, if cornets have a more cylindrical bores than trumpets, why do they sound warmer?

The answer to that question can be found in looking at the differences between the Kruspe and the Geyer layouts for french horns. The Geyer layout puts the Bb rotor inline with the 1-2-3 valve block resulting in a cleaner wrap with fewer turns and a brighter instrument. The Kruspe layout puts the Bb rotor well offset from the 1-2-3 valve block resulting in a far more convoluted wrap with many more turns and a darker instrument.

From this we get our answer . . . A cornet has a warmer tone than a trumpet due to its double wrap and not from having a more conical bore.

Reflecting on what happens to a standing sound wave in a curved tube rather than a straight tube, the straight tube does not distort the wave and sustains more high frequencies whereas a curved tube both stretches and compresses the standing wave resulting in cancelling higher frequencies within the wave.

So, we should all think of the main difference between a trumpet and a cornet as the single versus the double wrap and the effect that an additional 360 degrees of curved tubing has on the standing wave.

To get a warmer tone from a single wrap instrument, we need to look at the French design of flugelhorn. It uses a short pipe to the valve block and then a very carefully constructed 360 degree wrap to the bell with an expanding bore and a large diameter bell to achieve its warm tone.

Quite frankly, Louise, I stand with you on disliking Vincent Bach's Besson-copy 37 bell compared to his larger bell designs of later years that provide a darker and bolder sounds. The 72 is a great all-around bell that plays warm yet lights up when pushed. The 65 bell is similar to what I have on my Wild Thing trumpet. The Wild Thing bell has such a large throat that it requires that I modify the set of mutes I use with it to maintain proper intonation.

As I have written repeatedly, the Wild Thing provides a wonderful platform to achieve any "color" of sound that one would want—from almost-flugelhorn dark to commercial bright—by merely changing mouthpieces. Cup, throat, and backbore dimensions have as much importance to one's sound as the horn itself. When required to emulate the now extinct "A Cornet" in orchestral settings, I often go up to my C trumpet for ease of transposition and then use an exceptionally deep cup, large throat mouthpiece.

Regarding the importance of mouthpieces, Bobby Shew once said that the mouthpiece is the "instrument" we play and that the trumpet we attach to the mouthpiece merely resonates what comes out of the mouthpiece.
_________________
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Subtropical and Subpar
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 656
Location: Here and there

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Different Bach configurations Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
As I keep saying, I'm definitely sticking with my Yamaha Xeno II trumpet, but I'd still be interested in trying the new 190 series if and when they ever all get to the UK in one place.

My understanding is that the new 190 models are:

19037
19037X
19043
19065GV
19072V
19072X (Commercially orientated)

I'd like to play test them not knowing which model is which, so that I can discover which if any of the models I like.

As someone who likes the Bach S184ML cornet and Bach S183 flugel, but have been rather non plussed so far with the Bach 37, but maybe haven't played enough of them, do you have any predictions which if any of the models I may like enough to maybe get my loved Xeno II out of my hands, since a few on here lol, definitely seem to think that I should prefer a Bach trumpet and only prefer my Yamaha because I haven't tried a good Bach?

After Friday, I will have tried three 37/25 recently. All the new 190s should be good, so it will be very interesting to find out whether I haven't yet played a very good Bach, or whether as I suspect, the 37/25 may just not be my favourite.

I wonder whether I will like the Vindabonas, as the 19072V is stated as being more cornet like and me being very much a cornet girl at heart, but maybe not, as what I like about my Xeno II, is that it is very much my idea of what a trumpet should sound and play like, and in my opinion, it neither plays or sounds remotely like cornet.

Many thanks

Lou


The two favorite horns that I own are my Bach 180 series 72 bell (standard weight bell, medium weight valve block, reversed leadpipe, .459 bore) and my Kanstul 991, which has a teeny .439 bore like the Connstellations of old it emulates, so I would be incredibly eager to try a 19072V and its increasing (step?) bore from .448 to .459 if one ever shows up around this part of the subtropics. I find that I can play on the Kanstul for hours longer than any other horn, because it's just an easier/less taxing blow. The upper range is ridiculously accessible, too. But it does not have the timbral ring/core/whatever that exemplifies the Bach sound.

P.S. Since we are on a putatively American website, I feel I should note that "nonplussed" here in the US means the exact opposite of what it means in the UK and the rest of the world. US nonplussed is an antonym for UK nonplussed. We are a silly people sometimes.
_________________
1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All very interesting, thanks.

Although I'm not remotely doubting a word that you are saying, surely the leadpipe starts smaller on a cornet owing to the smaller end taper of a cornet mouthpiece. I'm not looking at my Bach 184ML cornet, but I'm pretty sure that the leadpipe has a narrower initial taper than my Bach 37. From memory, the leadpipe looks very narrower at the mouthpiece receiver end of the Bach 184ML (not so much on my Yamaha cornets).

Somewhere around the area of the end of the leadpipe/mouthpiece receiver of my Bach 184ML is so small in diameter, that I've had to cut the ball off the end of my HW Brass Saver (I've filed the cut very smooth) so that it can come out of the end of my Bach 184ML.

Although you've answered your own question, my answer would have been a narrower initial leadpipe taper, expanding to the same diameter as a trumpet where the tuning slide enters, and the different wrap with additional bends in the tubing.

Many thanks again

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Different Bach configurations Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
As I keep saying, I'm definitely sticking with my Yamaha Xeno II trumpet, but I'd still be interested in trying the new 190 series if and when they ever all get to the UK in one place.

My understanding is that the new 190 models are:

19037
19037X
19043
19065GV
19072V
19072X (Commercially orientated)

I'd like to play test them not knowing which model is which, so that I can discover which if any of the models I like.

As someone who likes the Bach S184ML cornet and Bach S183 flugel, but have been rather non plussed so far with the Bach 37, but maybe haven't played enough of them, do you have any predictions which if any of the models I may like enough to maybe get my loved Xeno II out of my hands, since a few on here lol, definitely seem to think that I should prefer a Bach trumpet and only prefer my Yamaha because I haven't tried a good Bach?

After Friday, I will have tried three 37/25 recently. All the new 190s should be good, so it will be very interesting to find out whether I haven't yet played a very good Bach, or whether as I suspect, the 37/25 may just not be my favourite.

I wonder whether I will like the Vindabonas, as the 19072V is stated as being more cornet like and me being very much a cornet girl at heart, but maybe not, as what I like about my Xeno II, is that it is very much my idea of what a trumpet should sound and play like, and in my opinion, it neither plays or sounds remotely like cornet.

Many thanks

Lou


The two favorite horns that I own are my Bach 180 series 72 bell (standard weight bell, medium weight valve block, reversed leadpipe, .459 bore) and my Kanstul 991, which has a teeny .439 bore like the Connstellations of old it emulates, so I would be incredibly eager to try a 19072V and its increasing (step?) bore from .448 to .459 if one ever shows up around this part of the subtropics. I find that I can play on the Kanstul for hours longer than any other horn, because it's just an easier/less taxing blow. The upper range is ridiculously accessible, too. But it does not have the timbral ring/core/whatever that exemplifies the Bach sound.

Thanks very much, and very interesting, thanks.

P.S. Since we are on a putatively American website, I feel I should note that "nonplussed" here in the US means the exact opposite of what it means in the UK and the rest of the world. US nonplussed is an antonym for UK nonplussed. We are a silly people sometimes.

I've had to Google antonym lol. It is not a word we use over here.

antonym
/ˈantənɪm/
noun
a word opposite in meaning to another (e.g. bad and good ).
"the antonym of ‘inclusion’ is ‘exclusion’"

Oh it means 'the opposite of '.


Actually, I'm now surprised.

Google says:

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
nonplussed
/nɒnˈplʌst/
adjective
1.
so surprised and confused that one is unsure how to react.
"Henry looked completely nonplussed"
Similar:
confused
bewildered
bemused
puzzled
perplexed
baffled
stumped
mystified
stupefied
muddled
befuddled
fuddled
dumbfounded
at sea
at a loss
at sixes and sevens
thrown (off balance)
taken aback
disoriented
disconcerted
discomposed
troubled
discomfited
unnerved
shaken
shaken up
dazed
stunned
surprised
astonished
astounded
flummoxed
bamboozled
discombobulated
clueless
fazed
floored
foxed
bushed
wildered
mazed
distracted
2.
INFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN
not disconcerted; unperturbed.
"I remember students being nonplussed about the flooding in the city, as they had become accustomed to it over the years"


I mean nonplussed as in meaning 2, which is given as informal. North American. I've never even heard of definition one lol.

Specifically when I say, "but have been rather non plussed so far with the Bach 37.", I mean I've been rather lukewarm in regards to my enthusiasm for it. Non plussed to me means having little positive or negative regard for something.

I've just asked my husband what he considers nonplussed to mean, and he gave the first explanation lol. Maybe I've been on here too much. Actually it is probably because I'm 15 years younger, and nowadays we share more culture with the US.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs


Last edited by Louise Finch on Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rhondo
Veteran Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2021
Posts: 333

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are posts here about the 72 bell and Vindabona Bachs before the new releases. I got the impression they were too much for some people to handle and not as versatile as the 37 or 43.

Is the now a Bach ‘Vindobona’ as opposed to ‘Vindabona’.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhondo wrote:
There are posts here about the 72 bell and Vindabona Bachs before the new releases.

I’ll have to check these out, thanks.

I got the impression they were too much for some people to handle and not as versatile as the 37 or 43.

Interesting, thanks, I’ve never tried one.

Is the now a Bach ‘Vindobona’ as opposed to ‘Vindabona’.


Sorry I’m not with you. I’ve checked that I’ve spelled it correctly.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs


Last edited by Louise Finch on Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rhondo
Veteran Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2021
Posts: 333

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Rhondo wrote:

Is the now a Bach ‘Vindobona’ as opposed to ‘Vindabona’.


Sorry I’m not with you. I’ve checked that I’ve spelled it correctly.

Take care and best wishes

Lou


Lou,

I have a typo there but what I was trying to say is that Bach seems to have changed the spelling for those new horns from an ‘a’ after ‘Vind’ to an ‘o’… The Vindobona Bach is the successor to the old Vindabonas!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhondo wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Rhondo wrote:

Is the now a Bach ‘Vindobona’ as opposed to ‘Vindabona’.


Sorry I’m not with you. I’ve checked that I’ve spelled it correctly.

Take care and best wishes

Lou


Lou,

I have a typo there but what I was trying to say is that Bach seems to have changed the spelling for those new horns from an ‘a’ after ‘Vind’ to an ‘o’… The Vindobona Bach is the successor to the old Vindabonas!


Sorry, I'm still not with you.

https://www.connselmer.com/instruments/brass/trumpets/5637169647.c?

Bach appear to be still spelling it as Vindabona.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rhondo
Veteran Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2021
Posts: 333

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:

Sorry, I'm still not with you.

https://www.connselmer.com/instruments/brass/trumpets/5637169647.c?

Lou


I see, apparently it’s a common misspelling:

https://kesslerandsons.com/product/bach-190l65gv-large-vindobona-stradivarius-trumpet/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhondo wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:

Sorry, I'm still not with you.

https://www.connselmer.com/instruments/brass/trumpets/5637169647.c?

Lou


I see, apparently it’s a common misspelling:

https://kesslerandsons.com/product/bach-190l65gv-large-vindobona-stradivarius-trumpet/


Thanks very much.

Obviously the retailer has made a spelling mistake, and Bach haven't changed the name.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nieuwguyski
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 2358
Location: Santa Cruz County, CA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Different Bach configurations Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
I've just asked my husband what he considers nonplussed to mean, and he gave the first explanation lol. Maybe I've been on here too much. Actually it is probably because I'm 15 years younger, and nowadays we share more culture with the US.


As a 60-year-old American, I have always assumed definition #1. Then again, I minored in English lit in college and read a lot of vintage English lit, the newest being George Bernard Shaw in a "Literature of the Theater" class.
_________________
J. Notso Nieuwguyski
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Subtropical and Subpar
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 656
Location: Here and there

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 10:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Different Bach configurations Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
I've just asked my husband what he considers nonplussed to mean, and he gave the first explanation lol. Maybe I've been on here too much. Actually it is probably because I'm 15 years younger, and nowadays we share more culture with the US.


As a 60-year-old American, I have always assumed definition #1. Then again, I minored in English lit in college and read a lot of vintage English lit, the newest being George Bernard Shaw in a "Literature of the Theater" class.


My experiences largely mirror Louise's dictionary entries: literature/news/etc outside the US uses definition #1, Americans use definition #2.

Shaw is wonderful stuff to read.
_________________
1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Subtropical and Subpar
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 656
Location: Here and there

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Different Bach configurations Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
As I keep saying, I'm definitely sticking with my Yamaha Xeno II trumpet, but I'd still be interested in trying the new 190 series if and when they ever all get to the UK in one place.

My understanding is that the new 190 models are:

19037
19037X
19043
19065GV
19072V
19072X (Commercially orientated)

I'd like to play test them not knowing which model is which, so that I can discover which if any of the models I like.

As someone who likes the Bach S184ML cornet and Bach S183 flugel, but have been rather non plussed so far with the Bach 37, but maybe haven't played enough of them, do you have any predictions which if any of the models I may like enough to maybe get my loved Xeno II out of my hands, since a few on here lol, definitely seem to think that I should prefer a Bach trumpet and only prefer my Yamaha because I haven't tried a good Bach?

After Friday, I will have tried three 37/25 recently. All the new 190s should be good, so it will be very interesting to find out whether I haven't yet played a very good Bach, or whether as I suspect, the 37/25 may just not be my favourite.

I wonder whether I will like the Vindabonas, as the 19072V is stated as being more cornet like and me being very much a cornet girl at heart, but maybe not, as what I like about my Xeno II, is that it is very much my idea of what a trumpet should sound and play like, and in my opinion, it neither plays or sounds remotely like cornet.

Many thanks

Lou


The two favorite horns that I own are my Bach 180 series 72 bell (standard weight bell, medium weight valve block, reversed leadpipe, .459 bore) and my Kanstul 991, which has a teeny .439 bore like the Connstellations of old it emulates, so I would be incredibly eager to try a 19072V and its increasing (step?) bore from .448 to .459 if one ever shows up around this part of the subtropics. I find that I can play on the Kanstul for hours longer than any other horn, because it's just an easier/less taxing blow. The upper range is ridiculously accessible, too. But it does not have the timbral ring/core/whatever that exemplifies the Bach sound.

Thanks very much, and very interesting, thanks.

P.S. Since we are on a putatively American website, I feel I should note that "nonplussed" here in the US means the exact opposite of what it means in the UK and the rest of the world. US nonplussed is an antonym for UK nonplussed. We are a silly people sometimes.

I've had to Google antonym lol. It is not a word we use over here.

antonym
/ˈantənɪm/
noun
a word opposite in meaning to another (e.g. bad and good ).
"the antonym of ‘inclusion’ is ‘exclusion’"

Oh it means 'the opposite of '.


Actually, I'm now surprised.

Google says:

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
nonplussed
/nɒnˈplʌst/
adjective
1.
so surprised and confused that one is unsure how to react.
"Henry looked completely nonplussed"
Similar:
confused
bewildered
bemused
puzzled
perplexed
baffled
stumped
mystified
stupefied
muddled
befuddled
fuddled
dumbfounded
at sea
at a loss
at sixes and sevens
thrown (off balance)
taken aback
disoriented
disconcerted
discomposed
troubled
discomfited
unnerved
shaken
shaken up
dazed
stunned
surprised
astonished
astounded
flummoxed
bamboozled
discombobulated
clueless
fazed
floored
foxed
bushed
wildered
mazed
distracted
2.
INFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN
not disconcerted; unperturbed.
"I remember students being nonplussed about the flooding in the city, as they had become accustomed to it over the years"


I mean nonplussed as in meaning 2, which is given as informal. North American. I've never even heard of definition one lol.

Specifically when I say, "but have been rather non plussed so far with the Bach 37.", I mean I've been rather lukewarm in regards to my enthusiasm for it. Non plussed to me means having little positive or negative regard for something.

I've just asked my husband what he considers nonplussed to mean, and he gave the first explanation lol. Maybe I've been on here too much. Actually it is probably because I'm 15 years younger, and nowadays we share more culture with the US.

Take care and best wishes

Lou


I am originally from New England, and I've grown accustomed to saying that there would be less culture shock moving from New England to England England than from New England to here in the American subtropics.
_________________
1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Different Bach configurations Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
I've just asked my husband what he considers nonplussed to mean, and he gave the first explanation lol. Maybe I've been on here too much. Actually it is probably because I'm 15 years younger, and nowadays we share more culture with the US.


As a 60-year-old American, I have always assumed definition #1. Then again, I minored in English lit in college and read a lot of vintage English lit, the newest being George Bernard Shaw in a "Literature of the Theater" class.


Very interesting, thanks. I never read vintage English literature. Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes and Enid Blyton is about my limit.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Different Bach configurations Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
nieuwguyski wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
I've just asked my husband what he considers nonplussed to mean, and he gave the first explanation lol. Maybe I've been on here too much. Actually it is probably because I'm 15 years younger, and nowadays we share more culture with the US.


As a 60-year-old American, I have always assumed definition #1. Then again, I minored in English lit in college and read a lot of vintage English lit, the newest being George Bernard Shaw in a "Literature of the Theater" class.


My experiences largely mirror Louise's dictionary entries: literature/news/etc outside the US uses definition #1, Americans use definition #2.

Very interesting, thanks.

Shaw is wonderful stuff to read.

I've never read Shaw. I meant to add that I've also read quite a bit of P G Wodehouse. Lately this has been my only reading lol.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Different Bach configurations Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:

I am originally from New England, and I've grown accustomed to saying that there would be less culture shock moving from New England to England England than from New England to here in the American subtropics.

Lol. I'm not sure whether my daughters, owing to American social media and tv, would notice the difference if they moved to America. At one time, they both thought that they had to ring 911 for the emergency services. Apparently if you ring 911 here, it diverts to 999, but obviously I'm not going to try it to see.

My 10 year old who told me this is right. From Google:

What happens if you dial 911 in the UK?
What happens if you call 911 in the UK? As long as your phone is actually in the UK at the time, if you call 911 in England, Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland, your phone call should be patched through to the main 999 switchboard.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5468
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm looking forward to trying my colleague's Bach 37, to decide whether I just don't much care for the Bach 37 or whether this is something off with mine.

I had a quick blow on my Bach 37 this morning, since I had a very heavy blow Wednesday, had a break from playing yesterday, and have a lot of playing to do tonight.

I just played a few hymns, but I thought that I would analyse the sound in different rooms in the house, tiled kitchen, room with soft furnishings etc., and I don't know. I don't claim to be anything special as a player, but I feel that I have a good sound, and receive a fair number of compliments regarding my sound.

Since I naturally have a good sound, I could make a good sound on my Bach, but I just don't know. My Yamaha has a pure, clear, ringing sound with lots of resonance.

The Bach bells are described as follows:

https://bachloyalist.com/bach-trumpets-bells/

What I feel and hear is a quite uniform and strong sound, but it doesn't sound particularly ringing or resonant to me, like my Bach 184ML does. The sound also feels quite narrow and constrained, although not a bad sound in anyway, and whereas you can put gradually more air through my Yamaha Xeno II, and it brightens up and broadens, my Bach 37 doesn't seem to do this. It seems to maintain this focused sound.

I'm wondering whether I'd actually like the 43 bell more.

I think that tonight will be interesting, as although now I've dialled in my mouthpiece gap on my Bach 37, it plays well enough and sounds good enough, I'm not particularly keen on either how it plays or sounds. The blow and sound of my Xeno II are definitely more to my taste.

It wasn't so much the sound of my colleague's Bach 37* that I didn't like, more I didn't like the slottyness. Now I've reduced the mouthpiece gap a little, I would be interested in trying it again, along with other colleague's Bach 37.

Anyway, tonight will be interesting, and I'll let you know my further thoughts tomorrow.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group