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What leadpipe does the YTR-8335 Xeno II have


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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 5:48 am    Post subject: What leadpipe does the YTR-8335 Xeno II have Reply with quote

Hi

The Yamaha YTR-9335CHS has a Malone MB1 leadpipe, the YTR-9335NYS has a Malone MB2 leadpipe. Does the Xeno II also have a Malone leadpipe? Either way, does anyone know what it is, as I don't think that the Yamaha website says.

Many thanks

Lou
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does not have a Malone pipe. The leadpipe is "the leadpipe on the xeno ii."
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
It does not have a Malone pipe. The leadpipe is "the leadpipe on the xeno ii."


Thanks very much. So it is Yamaha's own leadpipe? Do have any idea which one? i.e. The Yamaha Xeno II has the Yamaha YL3 bell. What leadpipe does is have?

Does it have its own leadpipe that is not on any other Yamaha trumpets, hence you saying, "The leadpipe on the Xeno II." Well, yes, obviously, but does it have a designation? Maybe it doesn't need one, if it is only used on the Xeno II.

All the best

Lou
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Well, yes, obviously, but does it have a designation? Maybe it doesn't need one, if it is only used on the Xeno II.


I admit I don't know much more than I offered. The reason that Bach leadpipe designations became relevant is because you could order this leadpipe with that bell, etc. With yamaha, you have no choices, therefore, it isn't really that important. None of us know enough about leadpipe design to glean relevant information from a designator.

Malone pipe designations are important because they used to be offered as choices in the era of Malone Conversions and are known quantities.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Well, yes, obviously, but does it have a designation? Maybe it doesn't need one, if it is only used on the Xeno II.


I admit I don't know much more than I offered. The reason that Bach leadpipe designations became relevant is because you could order this leadpipe with that bell, etc. With yamaha, you have no choices, therefore, it isn't really that important. None of us know enough about leadpipe design to glean relevant information from a designator.

Malone pipe designations are important because they used to be offered as choices in the era of Malone Conversions and are known quantities.


Very helpful, thanks very much.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the part #, it shares the same pipe as the 8345, but that doesn't mean that the taper isn't used on other designs. Yamaha sometimes uses different part numbers for the same part when it appears on different models.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets wrote:
According to the part #, it shares the same pipe as the 8345, but that doesn't mean that the taper isn't used on other designs. Yamaha sometimes uses different part numbers for the same part when it appears on different models.


Thanks very much, this is really appreciated. For interests sake, do you know what Bach or other manufacturer's model leadpipe, the Xeno II's leadpipe is most like? People say that the Xeno II is a Bach 25 leadpipe/37 bell style trumpet, and I know that how a trumpet plays is the sum of all its parts, but to me, the Xeno II plays nothing like a Bach 37 with a 25 pipe. Is this because its leadpipe isn't much like a Bach 25 and more like something else?

Or to put it another way, I know that we are comparing apples and oranges, but I'm wondering why specifically my Xeno II plays differently (preferably for me) to a Bach 37 (I compared it to three Bach 37s last Friday). Since the leadpipe is the mouthpiece end of the trumpet, I am wondering theoretically whether if you decided to put a Yamaha Xeno mouthpiece receiver and leadpipe on a Bach 37, whether you would end up with more of the blow of a Yamaha Xeno. I'm not actually thinking of doing it, just interested in what makes one trumpet play so differently to another. No doubt it is the sum of all its parts, but I'm guessing that the leadpipe would be a key area to change if you did want to alter the blow.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:

Thanks very much, this is really appreciated. For interests sake, do you know what Bach or other manufacturer's model leadpipe, the Xeno II's leadpipe is most like? People say that the Xeno II is a Bach 25 leadpipe/37 bell style trumpet, and I know that how a trumpet plays is the sum of all its parts, but to me, the Xeno II plays nothing like a Bach 37 with a 25 pipe. Is this because its leadpipe isn't much like a Bach 25 and more like something else?


I've never measured a Xeno leadpipe, so I can't comment on that.

The blow of the instrument is a combination of a number of factors, of which the leadpipe is one. Bracing, weight, bend shape, and other things are also very important
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:

Thanks very much, this is really appreciated. For interests sake, do you know what Bach or other manufacturer's model leadpipe, the Xeno II's leadpipe is most like? People say that the Xeno II is a Bach 25 leadpipe/37 bell style trumpet, and I know that how a trumpet plays is the sum of all its parts, but to me, the Xeno II plays nothing like a Bach 37 with a 25 pipe. Is this because its leadpipe isn't much like a Bach 25 and more like something else?


I've never measured a Xeno leadpipe, so I can't comment on that.

The blow of the instrument is a combination of a number of factors, of which the leadpipe is one. Bracing, weight, bend shape, and other things are also very important


Very interesting, thanks v much.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
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a.kemp
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2024 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Each horn is a sum of it's parts.

It's more than bell and lead pipe. Bach valve sets are different weight and tolerance compared to a Xeno II set. I bet this would influence sound/response/preference as much as those other components....maybe even more.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a.kemp wrote:
Each horn is a sum of it's parts.

Thanks very much, that is what I said earlier lol:

Louise Finch wrote:
I know that how a trumpet plays is the sum of all its parts


But thanks very much.

It's more than bell and lead pipe.

Yes, I'm sure it is.

Bach valve sets are different weight and tolerance compared to a Xeno II set. I bet this would influence sound/response/preference as much as those other components....maybe even more.

Quite likely, thanks very much.

Although I'm not planning on doing anything, my ideas came from reading this thread when I researched Yamaha bells for another purpose.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1237191

These players appear to be looking for the playability of a Yamaha with the sound of a Bach. After playing my Yamaha Xeno II with my Bach 37, and two others, my colleague who has played next to me for many years, says that I sound better on my Yamaha, and I already prefer playing it. He says that I sound next best on my Bach 37, but it is close rather than night and day. I've therefore personally got no reason for having the sound of a Bach with the playability of a Yamaha, but it is all interesting.

And also, even though I prefer my sound on my Yamaha and my colleague says that he would rank my sound on my Yamaha first, I find this post from the linked thread interesting:

Adam West wrote:
Rather than putting a Bach bell on a yamaha, however, a much better solution is finding an Malone pipe on a Bach, or having a Larson pipe attached (which is very similar).


I don't think that you can put Malone pipes on Bachs now that Bob Malone is a consultant for Yamaha, or whatever his exact role, but it is all interesting.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
These players appear to be looking for the playability of a Yamaha with the sound of a Bach. After playing my Yamaha Xeno II with my Bach 37, and two others, my colleague who has played next to me for many years, says that I sound better on my Yamaha, and I already prefer playing it.


I don't know why I keep pointing it out (and you do not need to respond to this point because you have many times), but I can't help myself: your Bach sounds less good than your Yamaha. That applies to just your horns and your Bach, which we know is non-standard.

Yes, many people talk about the Bach Sound™ and that reputation generally derives from the early years of Bach - up through about the early 70s. The reputation is a product of a few things: (1) the legacy of players playing Bach; (2) the sound in a hall; (3) the user's "behind the bell" experience.

Speaking about (3): for the average player, the "center/sweet spot" of a Bach seems to be easier to recognize, regardless of the playability. Even on good horns, Yamaha's "sweet spot" is a little more elusive to find (I have played through Gen II, not Gen III), but furthermore, the feedback one receives is different than on a Bach and requires a little more "trust" in the user experience. When the 9xxx Yamahas came out, most people were coming from Bach and it seems that most (I believe) missed that feedback, even in cases where the sound out front was negligible. (2) Most people don't compare horns for others in a big hall so nobody is really testing the carrying/quality capacity of their horns over distance/space. (1) is self-explanatory.

For the majority of players, just getting a "good/great" trumpet is more important than the brand. Beyond that, you get into the marginal gains territory which most players aren't advanced enough to navigate. The reason that we have so many pro Yamaha C trumpet players in the USA today is because the security the Yamaha offered was too alluring to those playing quirky instruments (Bach) and the sound quality consistently passed the "bar" for what the pros are looking for out in the hall.

Don't quote me on this but: For Yamaha, it seems the spectrum people are concerned about is "sterile to bach-like" in terms of sound. For Bach the spectrum is usually more "non-playable to playable." Just a thought I had, felt cute, might delete later.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
These players appear to be looking for the playability of a Yamaha with the sound of a Bach. After playing my Yamaha Xeno II with my Bach 37, and two others, my colleague who has played next to me for many years, says that I sound better on my Yamaha, and I already prefer playing it.


I don't know why I keep pointing it out (and you do not need to respond to this point because you have many times), but I can't help myself: your Bach sounds less good than your Yamaha. That applies to just your horns and your Bach, which we know is non-standard.

I will reply. My Bach is probably not non-standard. My clock maker colleague who has more tools than me has managed to find and locate a leadpipe ledge. He has measured with digital calipers, the distance from it to the top of my mouthpiece receiver as 27.40mm.

My other colleague said that I sounded better on my Bach than the two other Bachs.


I'm going to ask you a couple of questions, which hopefully you will be prepared to answer:

1. Do you think that all Bach pro trumpets have a better sound than all pro Yamaha trumpets?

2. Do you think that an average Bach 180 is a better player than an average Yamaha Xeno II?


Yes, many people talk about the Bach Sound™ and that reputation generally derives from the early years of Bach - up through about the early 70s. The reputation is a product of a few things: (1) the legacy of players playing Bach; (2) the sound in a hall; (3) the user's "behind the bell" experience.

Speaking about (3): for the average player, the "center/sweet spot" of a Bach seems to be easier to recognize, regardless of the playability. Even on good horns, Yamahas "sweet spot" is a little more elusive to find, but furthermore, the feedback one receives is different than on a Bach and requires a little more "trust" in the user experience.

This is all exactly what I like about my Yamaha.

When the 9xxx Yamahas came out, most people were coming from Bach and it seems that most (I believe) missed that feedback

I don't think that I personally do miss that feedback. I've played Yamaha trumpets for years, either side of my Bach 37.

, even if the difference in the sound out front was negligible. (2) Most people don't compare horns for others in a big hall so nobody is really testing the carrying/quality capacity of their horns over distance/space. (1) is self-explanatory.

For the majority of players, just getting a "good/great" trumpet is more important than the brand.

Yes, and I feel that my Xeno II is a great trumpet, suits me, and I get my best sound on it.

Beyond that, you get into the marginal gains territory which most players aren't advanced enough to navigate. The reason that we have so many pro Yamaha C trumpet players in the USA today is because the security the Yamaha offered was too alluring to those playing quirky instruments (Bach) and the sound quality consistently passed the "bar" for what the pros are looking for out in the hall.

Maybe, I'd don't play a lot of C, and my C is a Kanstul F Besson Classic.

Don't quote me on this but: For Yamaha, it seems the spectrum people are concerned about is "sterile to bach-like" in terms of sound. For Bach the spectrum is usually more "non-playable to playable." Just a thought I had, felt cute, might delete later.

Maybe, but whereas the Yamaha pro trumpets up to the Xeno I were more sterile in sound, I honestly think that the Xeno II is not sterile in sound, and that people should play one before they write off Yamaha trumpets as sterile, but that is my opinion.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
I will reply. My Bach is probably not non-standard. My clock maker colleague who has more tools than me has managed to find and locate a leadpipe ledge. He has measured with digital calipers, the distance from it to the top of my mouthpiece receiver as 27.40mm.


Your Bach leadpipe (the receiver leadpipe-combo) is non-standard, there is no debate.

Louise Finch wrote:
My other colleague said that I sounded better on my Bach than the two other Bachs.


I will amend: your Bach sounds less good than your Yamaha (but better than two other Bachs). That applies to just those horns and your Bach, which we know is non-standard.

Louise Finch wrote:
Maybe, but whereas the Yamaha pro trumpets up to the Xeno I were more sterile in sound, I honestly think that the Xeno II is not sterile in sound, and that people should play one before they write off Yamaha trumpets as sterile, but that is my opinion.


Maybe I wasn't clear - I am saying that Yamahas can sound great (bach-like) but bad yamahas are sterile (however all are still playable). Again, it is just a emergent theory of mine, not fully committed to it.

Ok, on to direct questions:
Louise Finch wrote:
1. Do you think that all Bach pro trumpets have a better sound than all pro Yamaha trumpets?

2. Do you think that an average Bach 180 is a better player than an average Yamaha Xeno II?


1. No
2. No
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
I will reply. My Bach is probably not non-standard. My clock maker colleague who has more tools than me has managed to find and locate a leadpipe ledge. He has measured with digital calipers, the distance from it to the top of my mouthpiece receiver as 27.40mm.


Your Bach leadpipe (the receiver leadpipe-combo) is non-standard, there is no debate.

I'm just not sure. To me, I can see a ring where the top of the leadpipe is, but whereas there is an admittedly narrow ledge on my Bach 184ML and my colleagues Bach 37* (the one on my Yamaha Xeno II is a little wider and more defined in my opinion), my colleague said (to quote him verbatim):

and measured the depth of the step in the mouth pipe (there is one in your trumpet).

Mouthpieces definitely insert around 1mm further in my Bach 37 than your two Bach receivers and my colleague's Bach 37*'s receiver. I suspect a worn a mouthpiece receiver. I'm not sure that this is necessarily a bad thing, as I prefer a smaller mouthpiece gap anyhow. I'm going to decide between a James R New 6 and James R New 6.25 sleeve when I get my trumpet back. If the 1mm further insertion amount was a problem, I'd probably be looking at number 4,4.5 sleeves.


Louise Finch wrote:
My other colleague said that I sounded better on my Bach than the two other Bachs.


I will amend: your Bach sounds less good than your Yamaha (and two other Bachs). That applies to just those horns and your Bach, which we know is non-standard.

Yes, that is right, but presumably since I played three Bachs, we can't say that this result was because my Bach is a bad one, as I sounded better on it than the other two, or that I prefer my Yamaha only because I have never played a good Bach.

Louise Finch wrote:
Maybe, but whereas the Yamaha pro trumpets up to the Xeno I were more sterile in sound, I honestly think that the Xeno II is not sterile in sound, and that people should play one before they write off Yamaha trumpets as sterile, but that is my opinion.


Maybe I wasn't clear - I am saying that Yamahas can sound great (bach-like) but bad yamahas are sterile (however all are still playable).

I don't have a bad Yamaha, as mine has a great sound.

Ok, on to direct questions:
Louise Finch wrote:
1. Do you think that all Bach pro trumpets have a better sound than all pro Yamaha trumpets?

2. Do you think that an average Bach 180 is a better player than an average Yamaha Xeno II?


1. No
2. No

Thanks very much.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

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Kanstul F Besson C
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Daniel Barenboim
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s more than likely a copy of a Bach 25 with a heavier receiver. The newer artist series receivers are lighter and closer to Bach mass wise.

DB
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kerouack
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pablo Picasso: “Good artists copy, great artists steal.”
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daniel Barenboim wrote:
It’s more than likely a copy of a Bach 25 with a heavier receiver. The newer artist series receivers are lighter and closer to Bach mass wise.

DB


Thanks very much, but I don't know. Doesn't play much like a Bach 25 leadpipe to me.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
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Yamaha D and D/Eb
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Doesn't play much like a Bach 25 leadpipe to me


a.kemp wrote:
Each horn is a sum of it's parts.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Doesn't play much like a Bach 25 leadpipe to me


a.kemp wrote:
Each horn is a sum of it's parts.


I said that originally lol.

i.e.
Louise Finch wrote:
I know that how a trumpet plays is the sum of all its parts


Let's rephrase this. My Yamaha Xeno II plays nothing like my Bach 37. My Bach 37 presumably has a Bach 25 leadpipe, and I have recently played two other Bachs that do have a Bach 25 leadpipe. I have no idea what leadpipe my Xeno II has. If it is like a Bach 25 and the bell is like a Bach 37, something else in the sum of all its parts makes it play very different to a Bach 37 lol.

All the best

Lou
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Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
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Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
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