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Past versus present


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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2024 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm seeing that Trent Austin and co. (ACB) will be at ITG with both Getzen and Edwards horns.
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Rhondo
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2024 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2024 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My horns are all betwen 25 and 55 years old. They work as well as I can play them, with slight differences in sound and feel depending on the horn and mouthpiece combination. I don't know if a newer horn would make a difference or not.

There''s at least a dozen new horns on my "want to try" list but it will have to wait until I can afford one. I don't like trying new horns when I don't have the cash available because if I like them then I'll hate my current horns and just pine for new ones instead of practicing.
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Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces


Last edited by spitvalve on Mon May 20, 2024 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2024 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From about 2007-2013, I had the wonderful chance to spend many hours with brass gurus such as Flip Oakes, Zig Kanstul, Adam Getzen and more, garnering as much of their wisdom about brass instrument design as I could. The big advancements I have seen in this industry that separate modern (1975 +/-) from true vintage are:

1) The adoption of Monel pistons, which dropped the less controllable and much more labor intensive nickel plated brass.

2) CNC machining, which greatly increased accuracy and repeatability while decreasing labor costs of precision machining.

3) The influx of super low labor costs coupled with rising quality of work coming out of Asia.

4) The use of electronic acoustic measuring instrumentation to better understand the effects mass placement, etc.

5) A great numerical drop in demand for quality brass instruments, presumably as a result of the move away from acoustic music in pop culture.

These contribute to or detract from the quality of experience we get from either a true vintage or modern instrument. I agree that most of what is known about trumpets was determined by the Big Band era of music, however building quality continued to improve in terms of repeatability as computerized machining came to the industry.

The Edwards X-13 would never have been produced in earlier years, as it required extensive experimentation with mass placement and removal that was not necessary or feasible in earlier years. The X-13 was born out of a market need to differentiate the model from conventional designs in order to increase market share and awareness of the Edwards and Getzen brands in a environment where quality and brand names in the USA have either disappeared, become stagnant or indistinguishable from cheap Asian products.
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2024 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good analysis, Brian.

Most of the great trumpet makers of the early 20th century were copying Besson. Then there was a branching out of design from there.

I have a Calicchio which I love the sound of, but mechanism? As one wag put it here a long time ago: "They call them Clickios".
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ACB MV3C /James R. New Studio backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2024 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgive me for being a little late to the party on this one. There is a lot to unpack so I am just going to quickly hit what jumps to mind.

Other than improvements to efficiency thanks to things like CNC machining and better tooling, there really isn't much in our processes that are different from the way things were done 70 years ago. We don't use things like hydro-forming or any kind of automation at all. The vast majority of our labor processes are still done by hand the old fashioned way. What CNC machining we use has replaced the man at a lathe processes that would have been standard for small parts back when the company was founded. There are still a lot of that today though. Bell spinning, buffing, drawing tube are all still man (or woman) at the machine.

That being said, the X-13 most definitely could have been made back then... if they had the inclination to do it. They certainly would have had the ability. Perhaps not the same repeatability or efficiency we have today, but it could have been done.

Because of the way vintage horns were made (by hand, one at a time) you would have a wide range of finished instruments. For every amazingly good one there would be an amazingly bad one. We all romanticize the good ones, but there were plenty of bad. Doc once told me a story about a hunt for the perfect pre-war French Besson and all the duds he went through looking for "the one".

Speaking for us, there hasn't been some revolutionary technological break through in trumpet manufacturing that has unleashed anything new. Instead, it is more of a casting off of old ideas and stretching what is possible. Trying things that, in the past, would be looked down on. Do they all work? No. But every once in a while you hit on something new and exciting rather than just rehashing the same old ideas that have been done again and again and again.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2024 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and we won't be at ITG ourselves. It just isn't worth the time and effort of sending people out there. Instead, we partnered with ACB to show horns for us.
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Brett Getzen
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2024 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
That being said, the X-13 most definitely could have been made back then... if they had the inclination to do it. They certainly would have had the ability.

Thanks, Brett, for taking the time to provide such a thorough and informative reply!
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2024 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, thanks very much for your post, Brett.
I've been doing repair for a long time and what you say resonates. But the X-13 has tweaks that never would have been considered in past eras by manufacturers- really interesting small changes that may make a difference.
That's what it's come down to - small changes that make the difference.
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Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /James R. New Studio backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2024 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Yes, thanks very much for your post, Brett.
I've been doing repair for a long time and what you say resonates. But the X-13 has tweaks that never would have been considered in past eras by manufacturers- really interesting small changes that may make a difference.
That's what it's come down to - small changes that make the difference.


I 100% agree, but those small things aren’t technological break throughs developed with AI using space age materials. They were thoughtful, reasoned approaches to design and construction based on experience, accrued knowledge, creative thinking, and a willingness to try something different. A departure from the typical. Not surprising that since the X-13 came out there are several similar trumpets on the market from other manufacturers. So it goes in this business.
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Brett Getzen
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2024 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
Getzen wrote:
That being said, the X-13 most definitely could have been made back then... if they had the inclination to do it. They certainly would have had the ability.

Thanks, Brett, for taking the time to provide such a thorough and informative reply!

Second that.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2024 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my somewhat jaded, been doing this for too long, take on innovation and development when it comes to trumpets.

Back in the day, a lot of things where done simply because that is how they were done. There seemed to be certain, accepted designs/features/whatever that "had" to be on a trumpet. Venturing away from that list was looked down on and wouldn't get wide spread acceptance. There was very little incentive to reach. It would happen, but in small incremental steps. Even if you thought of and successfully achieved design F, you couldn't get from A to F without first going through B, C, D, and E... if that makes sense. There is still a lot of that today from the manufacturers and players. The X-13 was around for a long time before it received any kind of wide spread acceptance. Even now, I routinely hear from players reluctant to try it because of the way it looks.

Today, looking around from this side of things, it seems that one of the biggest driving forces of innovation has become financial. There is far more weight put on making instruments cheaper/faster to produce than there is to improve the final product. If I can cut the cost by 20%, but the performance by 10% great. If I can cut costs by 20% and the performance by 20% that works too. Keep in mind I am using "I" in the generally sense, not saying we do that.

Don't get me wrong, there were clearly some amazing innovators in the past. Just like there are today. They were and are just impacted by other external forces that may have restricted what they could do.
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Brett Getzen
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