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Standard vs Reverse Leadpipe



 
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rhatheway
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2024 11:03 am    Post subject: Standard vs Reverse Leadpipe Reply with quote

I've come to understand there are two different types of leadpipes - standard and reverse. If I understand it correctly, the standard leadpipe is the one that the majority of horns have, with the tuning slide that goes inside of the leadpipe, while the reverse leadpipe is just the opposite (the tuning slide goes over the leadpipe).

Conceptually, I can understand that the reverse leadpipe design would probably have a smoother (not sure if that is the right word) blow, as there is not a lip inside the leadpipe from the edge of the tuning slide that might create a small vortex as the air is being blown through the leadpipe. Is that correct? Is that why some people prefer the reverse leadpipe to the standard leadpipe? And is the difference in leadpipe design really that noticeable, or is it really just for that extremely small percentage of players who make their living from playing trumpet?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2024 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not really about how air flows through the tubing (because the amount of actual flow is quite small), but more about how the interval 'standing' sound waves) bounce around and are affected by the 'edge' of the tubing.

Basically the 'reversed' design allows the leadpipe length be longer before the edge is encountered. Also the position of the brace that attaches the bell to the leadpipe is in a different location.

It is just 1 element in how a trumpet is designed, and all the related design considerations TOGETHER are what determines the overall characteristics of the instrument.

But ... there seems to be common thought that reverse design is associated with a more free / open 'blow', and perhaps with 'wider slots' - meaning the player is required to pay more attention to the getting the desired pitch.
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Last edited by JayKosta on Wed May 22, 2024 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mograph
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2024 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
It is just 1 element is how a trumpet is designed, and all the related design considerations TOGETHER is what determines the overall characteristics of the instrument.


No kidding. This is truth.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2024 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
It is just 1 element in how a trumpet is designed, and all the related design considerations TOGETHER is what determines the overall characteristics of the instrument.

Read the above again but this time out loud.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2024 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:

Read the above again but this time out loud.

------------
yep - typos - I'll edit the original
..... motto of careful editors - "we put the L back into pubLic"

I try to not be that sloppy, maybe it was due to several hours of mowing in the hot sun earlier today - still feel tired now.
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matthes93401
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2024 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The improved openness and flexibility of the reverse pipe come at the expense of a sharper concert F on top of the staff. Maybe a few builders know tricks to lessen that.
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Rhondo
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2024 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the reverse leadpipe I had, response didn’t feel as immediate as standard configuration, but that may have been at least in part because the reverse pipe was a conversion onto a standard weight horn with gold bell.

Reverse or standard seems to be about personal preference in context with other facets of a horn.
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2024 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I bought my Bach LR180 I A-B'd it with a standard Bach 37. The LR180 was more responsive, free-blowing, and better in tune fhan the standard horn. Keep in mind that the LR180 has a lightweight body and standard weight bell vs the standard weight body and bell on the regular, which may have some bearing on the sound and response, but I think the reverse leadpipe is what made the intonation better.

My Getzen has a standard leadpipe but has very good intonation. Would it be even better with a reverse leadpipe? I can't say for sure because there are so many variables.

The conventional wisdom about reverse leadpipes is that it improves response, airflow, and intonation. That may vary from brand to brand and horn to horn.
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Last edited by spitvalve on Thu May 23, 2024 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2024 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mograph wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
It is just 1 element is how a trumpet is designed, and all the related design considerations TOGETHER is what determines the overall characteristics of the instrument.


No kidding. This is truth.


I like this.. of the horns I've played the ones that had reversed leadpipes without any other alterations had better intune notes through the staff but were stuffy in the upper register and lost tone at the very bottom compared to the traditional design.
Trumpets that were built and designed from the gound up with a reversed design respond better. A side issue is that with a reversed pipe bracing has to be moved or removed - this, to me, has the same or more impact on the instrument.

Back in the day, I had a Bach 180L C229 modified to a reversed lead pipe. Which improved tuning at the top of the staff, but also with the modification of bracing the trumpet was very lively - At times too lively, great in big ensembles but not so much in small settings - like soloing in church.
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rhatheway
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2024 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spitvalve wrote:

My Getzen has a standard leadpipe but has very good intonation. Would it be even better with a reverse leadpipe? I can't say for sure because there are so many variables.


I've never had a problem with intonation on my Getzen either. It's a 55 year old horn with very good build quality, which is one reason I'm not ever planning on getting rid of it.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2024 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just one adjustment to your description of the design difference between standard and reversed mouth pipe:

In both cases, the tuning slide top leg butts up to the mouth pipe tube, with a gap between them, as the slide is pulled to tune. These tubes are surrounded by an outer receiver tube, either soldered into the mouth pipe, in the case of the standard configuration, or to the tuning slide in the case of the reversed configuration. In addition, there is another length of outer tube on the reversed design that serves as a mounting point for the bell brace (as it also does for the standard) and to join the mouth pipe to a cylindrical extension tube that slides inside the tuning slide’s outer receiver tube. Normally, this tube is the tuning slide’s upper leg. It is almost never part of the actual mouth pipe.

It is the attachment of this inner tube that makes the difference. The other changes follow this one. Why is it done? To the best of my knowledge, it is to move the gap between the mouth pipe and tuning slide further down the length of the instrument. This change also requires the bell brace to be mounted closer to the valve block, unless a third tube is added outside of the normal two, as with some C-trumpet designs.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2024 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To complicate the matter further, there is also a double reverse configuration, as seen here: https://www.blechin.de/endres-8

I have never seen or played one and think some Martins had that setup as well.

Not sure what that does but it will (again) depend on the rest of the horn setup.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2024 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Conceptually, I can understand that the reverse leadpipe design would probably have a smoother (not sure if that is the right word) blow, as there is not a lip inside the leadpipe from the edge of the tuning slide that might create a small vortex as the air is being blown through the leadpipe. Is that correct?


No, it likely has little to nothing to do with air flow disruptions but rather the acoustical effects which are also mentioned here.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2024 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Practically speaking, I have never felt a difference. I think that there are so many other affiliated acoustic treatments and tweaks that the end result is a gestalt not a direct cause and effect.
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