We know everyone is capable of bringing any instrument in tune, no matter how good or bad it is. This video is instead showing how most trumpets sound without that manipulation.
The First Aid aims at moving the harmonic series eliminating the need for the player to bend notes in tune.
This, in turns, results in a better tone as notes will naturally sit in their most resonant place, with matching resistance and similar character throughout the range of the instrument.
An added benefits are that the articulation will be faster and more precise, the sound more consistent and resonant.
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 701 Location: Here and there
Posted: Mon May 27, 2024 5:36 am Post subject:
Interesting if it works. On the other hand I remember similar buzz over that LeFreque [sic] a few years ago - buzz that died out quickly, it seems to me. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
Pretty clever design. No doubt this will become popular the same way heavy caps did. I'm a bit skeptical about it having miraculous effects, particularly with intonation, but won't deny that adding weight definitely changes the way a trumpet feels to play.
All I think when I see these type of gadgets is that if they were so good, with all the R+D that top manufacturers put into development, wouldn't these types of things have been part of the design of the horn by now?
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1049 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Mon May 27, 2024 8:42 am Post subject:
The two videos were quite persuasive. Trent's, and especially this one with Before/After demos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwfIvHocgAg. Listen to the pitch for E on the staff, A above the staff (on the last song) and C above the staff. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 w/French, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS, GR 66CT-Z, & Touvron-D.
While the video is persuasive, I felt watching the player I could easily see him "playing flat" somewhat purposely on certain pitches without the little weight. I'm not saying he's deceptive but it's amazing what the subconscious can make the body do when there is an expectation.
The only real way to test this is with something like the Toyota trumpet robot or the like and a tuner. At the very least, it should be a blind test where the player is unaware whether the device is on the horn vs not.
That being said, I'll withhold any strict judgement until I've actually played one. I'd love to hear thoughts from Bob Malone on both this and the LeFreque.
It’s easy to replicate the same results of my horn being out of tune, then being perfectly in tune with using just my ear and air support. No device needed.
I’ll mess around with the AR First Aid at ITG.
There’s no doubt that adding things like this onto a horn change the resonance. The Edwards X-13 demonstrated this well with their sound pillars.
While the video is persuasive, I felt watching the player I could easily see him "playing flat" somewhat purposely on certain pitches without the little weight. I'm not saying he's deceptive but it's amazing what the subconscious can make the body do when there is an expectation.
ericmpena wrote:
It’s easy to replicate the same results of my horn being out of tune, then being perfectly in tune with using just my ear and air support. No device needed.
You are both correct, the player is purposefully adjusting the pitch to show the effect. AR Resonance did state that in the text accompanying the video on their website. I've added the accompanying text from the AR website as a quote for clarification.
AR Resonance wrote:
We know everyone is capable of bringing any instrument in tune, no matter how good or bad it is. This video is instead showing how most trumpets sound without that manipulation.
The First Aid aims at moving the harmonic series eliminating the need for the player to bend notes in tune.
This, in turns, results in a better tone as notes will naturally sit in their most resonant place, with matching resistance and similar character throughout the range of the instrument.
An added benefits are that the articulation will be faster and more precise, the sound more consistent and resonant.
_________________ "...even in their mighty company I shall not now feel ashamed."
As clearly explained in the text I published in the website the video shows where a trumpet wants to play, not how it can be played.
I know most of you won’t need this clarification but apparently it’s needed anyway.
There is a clear difference between which frequency an instrument wants to resonate at and what a good player can produce to bend the pitch until it’s in tune, to the (hopefully) clear detriment of sound, resonance, consistency in timbre, resistance and response.
Making a machine or robot produce a specific pitch to see if this pitch will change once it goes through the mouthpiece and horn is the wrong approach to solving the problem ALL trumpets and mouthpieces have.
You can definitely force a pitch but you will not do what the instrument would like you to do.
The video shows my friends Paolo actively following the tendency of each harmonic: it’s literally chasing the best resonance possible for each note.
This is not bending the note out of tune but rather finding the right pitch given the mouthpiece, trumpet, braces, lip protrusion and so on.
And no, trumpet makers, for the most part, haven’t fixed these issues, that’s why we keep talking about how inconsistent X brand is compared to brand Y.
We were completely sold out at the end of the ITG: we sold about 300 of the First Aid after having demonstrated it over 100 times in 4 days.
Every single customer tried it after it was properly set by me on their very trumpet with their own mouthpiece.
A good 90% of people who tested it ended up getting one or more.
This is why colossal players like Wayne Bergeron, Sergei Nakariakov, Chris Botti, Alex Sipiagin, Brian Lynch, Marco Pierobon, Fabrizio Bosso, Jose Sibaja, Jouko Harjanne, Trent Austin, Tero Lindberg and so many others have been playing with it for months before we dared presenting it to the public at the ITG.
The actual risk with such a fine tool is that tone deaf or stubborn players will not use it properly: placing it randomly on the horn will turn it into an expensive gimmick.
Not following the proper routine to find the perfect spot will make the player draw the conclusion that it doesn’t make a perceivable difference or that it “just enhances the sound and response”. Which it definitely does, but it’s the least (welcome) consequence of the First Aid.
The actual effect is that if moving the frequencies the horn wants to resonate at.
It’s awful when you have to resort to mentioning the best in the world to prove if your products work but it’s equally annoying reading such comments from people who haven’t tried yet, and yet they have an opinion or make comparisons with other products.
You don’t have to like it, believe in it or support it.
At the same time it’s not compulsory to write your opinion when you don’t have yet ground to have one.
For once, please, make the effort to respect the work, competence and experience of makers, especially those who built their reputation away from Tik Tok’s double high C videos.
We are not all in the same category.
I’ll leave this link where you can hear from Wayne what he thinks.
I hope he has enough credibility…
I’ll be honest, my primary horn plays comfortably in tune without me needing to force anything into place.
I did just play a Xeno and Strad yesterday and of course those horns were extremely pitchy. If the First Aid can resolve the horrible tuning inconsistencies of my Strad, then I’d love to have one!
How would the First Aid differ from placing it on a horn that is terribly inconsistent versus a horn that does not stray more than +/-5 cents?
Is it just a matter of where you place the First Aid on the slide? Or do certain materials (brass, nickel, bronze) affect how greatly the First Aid will impact the frequency?
As clearly explained in the text I published in the website the video shows where a trumpet wants to play, not how it can be played.
I know most of you won’t need this clarification but apparently it’s needed anyway.
This is my fault. When I first posted the video I didn't include the accompanying text. I'm sure you understand that without it, those comments weren't that unreasonable. My apologies for that.
anrapa wrote:
For once, please, make the effort to respect the work, competence and experience of makers
I do. I greatly respect the quality of your products and your excellent customer service. It's the reason I started this thread; to make people aware that you had a new product and what you had to say about it. Again, sorry if my mess up it didn't quite work out positively for you. _________________ "...even in their mighty company I shall not now feel ashamed."
As clearly explained in the text I published in the website the video shows where a trumpet wants to play, not how it can be played.
I know most of you won’t need this clarification but apparently it’s needed anyway.
There is a clear difference between which frequency an instrument wants to resonate at and what a good player can produce to bend the pitch until it’s in tune, to the (hopefully) clear detriment of sound, resonance, consistency in timbre, resistance and response.
Making a machine or robot produce a specific pitch to see if this pitch will change once it goes through the mouthpiece and horn is the wrong approach to solving the problem ALL trumpets and mouthpieces have.
You can definitely force a pitch but you will not do what the instrument would like you to do.
The video shows my friends Paolo actively following the tendency of each harmonic: it’s literally chasing the best resonance possible for each note.
This is not bending the note out of tune but rather finding the right pitch given the mouthpiece, trumpet, braces, lip protrusion and so on.
And no, trumpet makers, for the most part, haven’t fixed these issues, that’s why we keep talking about how inconsistent X brand is compared to brand Y.
We were completely sold out at the end of the ITG: we sold about 300 of the First Aid after having demonstrated it over 100 times in 4 days.
Every single customer tried it after it was properly set by me on their very trumpet with their own mouthpiece.
A good 90% of people who tested it ended up getting one or more.
This is why colossal players like Wayne Bergeron, Sergei Nakariakov, Chris Botti, Alex Sipiagin, Brian Lynch, Marco Pierobon, Fabrizio Bosso, Jose Sibaja, Jouko Harjanne, Trent Austin, Tero Lindberg and so many others have been playing with it for months before we dared presenting it to the public at the ITG.
The actual risk with such a fine tool is that tone deaf or stubborn players will not use it properly: placing it randomly on the horn will turn it into an expensive gimmick.
Not following the proper routine to find the perfect spot will make the player draw the conclusion that it doesn’t make a perceivable difference or that it “just enhances the sound and response”. Which it definitely does, but it’s the least (welcome) consequence of the First Aid.
The actual effect is that if moving the frequencies the horn wants to resonate at.
It’s awful when you have to resort to mentioning the best in the world to prove if your products work but it’s equally annoying reading such comments from people who haven’t tried yet, and yet they have an opinion or make comparisons with other products.
You don’t have to like it, believe in it or support it.
At the same time it’s not compulsory to write your opinion when you don’t have yet ground to have one.
For once, please, make the effort to respect the work, competence and experience of makers, especially those who built their reputation away from Tik Tok’s double high C videos.
We are not all in the same category.
I’ll leave this link where you can hear from Wayne what he thinks.
I hope he has enough credibility…
I understand defending the product but I don't think it helps to call anyone questioning or interested in the product as annoying etc. especially when you don't know their credentials or who they may be.
AR is known as a reputable company making quality products. I was aware of the text on the website. Videos can be hard to translate but the player in video "doesn't" sound like he's resonating on the out of tune notes where the horn wants to be, that was my point. I did also clearly state that I was witholding judgement until playing one, I was only commenting on what was presented.
As far as the poster referencing the LeFreque, it was just an observation that many well known players (Including W Bergeron I believe) were enthusiastic and using them when they first came out.
I don't believe anyone was attacking the product or saying it doesn't work. Mentioning that great players like or use the product is a GOOD thing and shouldn't feel like something "awful" you have to mention.
I'm for one glad there are companies like AR constantly seeking to improve our instruments. I do think it would also be interesting as I mentioned to do large scale blind testing as well and see what the results would be (if this hasn't yet been done).
The player in the video doesn't sound like in Paolo's video as, as clearly stated in the text, Paolo was "overdriving" the horn.
There will never be a video like that from a any other player as they will simply play "to be in tune".
Nonetheless the difference in tuning and sound quality is SO clear that it should be enough to dispel any doubt.
I don't think anyone was "attacking" my product, I do believe that expressing opinions in that way, while not having tried it in person, or calling it similar to other products that have nothing in common mechanically is adding nothing to the conversation other than "doubt", to say it lightly.
Why one might feel the need to express such opinions instead of simply asking for information is beyond my understanding.
I own a trumpet forum in Italy and I know the dynamics of such things.
As far as the large scale blind test: well, it happened last week at the ITG, it was the perfect opportunity for such a thing.
I'm glad I passed it.
Don't get me wrong, the amount of damage a post on a forum is able to make is well past what you might ever imagine.
Now, if you want to know some technicalities about how and why it works, I'm more than happy to write a LONG post about that. _________________ AR Resonance Trumpets and Mouthpieces
The player in the video doesn't sound like in Paolo's video as, as clearly stated in the text, Paolo was "overdriving" the horn.
There will never be a video like that from a any other player as they will simply play "to be in tune".
Nonetheless the difference in tuning and sound quality is SO clear that it should be enough to dispel any doubt.
I don't think anyone was "attacking" my product, I do believe that expressing opinions in that way, while not having tried it in person, or calling it similar to other products that have nothing in common mechanically is adding nothing to the conversation other than "doubt", to say it lightly.
Why one might feel the need to express such opinions instead of simply asking for information is beyond my understanding.
I own a trumpet forum in Italy and I know the dynamics of such things.
As far as the large scale blind test: well, it happened last week at the ITG, it was the perfect opportunity for such a thing.
I'm glad I passed it.
Don't get me wrong, the amount of damage a post on a forum is able to make is well past what you might ever imagine.
Now, if you want to know some technicalities about how and why it works, I'm more than happy to write a LONG post about that.
No one is attempting to damage any reputation or product. Your site seems to clearly indicate how and why it works. No one is against you, just talking about a product that was presented. 99.999999% of trumpet players have yet to try this yet so it's interesting to most.
A blind test is quite different but I'm glad it was such a success at ITG and have no doubt that you'll sell many of these (including myself) with the list of players you show endorsing them.
... On the other hand I remember similar buzz over that LeFreque [sic] a few years ago - buzz that died out quickly, it seems to me.
I noticed that lefreQue sound bridges was at the NABBA championships this year. Quite a few people were trying them out and I noticed a fair number of the brass band players appeared to have bought and used them during the competition.
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 701 Location: Here and there
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2024 11:21 am Post subject:
As I said earlier, I am interested - my favorite trumpet is annoyingly flat at the top of the staff (and brilliant doing everything else). It would seem that is in the First Aid's wheelhouse, and odds are I will buy one to see if/how it helps.
No offense was intended in comparing it to the LeFreque - I recall a few friends buying the LeFreque around the time ITG was in Miami. All of them abandoned it after a few weeks. In fairness, that is anecdotal; perhaps it works wonders for other players.
ACB's product page for the First Aid mentions that "Even 0.1mm can make a difference that an experienced player can feel right away." Given this degree of precision, is there a guide or tips / rules of thumb to aid the first-time user? _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
ACB's product page for the First Aid mentions that "Even 0.1mm can make a difference that an experienced player can feel right away." Given this degree of precision, is there a guide or tips / rules of thumb to aid the first-time user?
There's a video on the AR website that explains it. _________________ "...even in their mighty company I shall not now feel ashamed."
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