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how should i approach this person?


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TWEAK
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:08 pm    Post subject: how should i approach this person? Reply with quote

there is a teacher at my school named dr. barry kilpatrick. he wrote a manual called "beginning trombone method" and i bought it because i am taking his advanced trombone class next semister.
there is a half a page section in the book where he introduces carmine caruso. he has written things in it which i find to be the negative things that people rumor about with caruso. how do i approach him without offending him (he is a dr.) and tell him about the errors of what he has written? he has never taken a single lesson with caruso.
the following is what he has written in his manual:
"caruso embouchure builder"
carmine caruso realized that the brass player's embouchure could be strengthened with the following exercise, (intervals in 2nds, not 6 notes, by the way) played in a way that is quite different from ordinary playing. follow these steps--
1. play at a steady, slow tempo (use a metronome or tap your foot)
2. do not use your tongue, and play at a healthy volume level. as you feel your embouchure muscles tire, maintain breath support.
3. maintain correct embouchure at all times. that is, hold the lip corners firmly, even when they begin to tire.
4. during the rests, breathe through your nose, do not relax the embouchre, and do not move the mouthpiece.
5. you will find that because of the non-stop and increasing muscle tension, you will tire much sooner than you expect. when you "run out of gas", keep blowing through the 2-bar phrase, even if you can't produce a sound.
6. wait a bit (it's up to you to decide how long) and start again where you stopped. continue until you can't play any longer.
this exercise may be best at the end of a practice session. play it daily and correctly, and you wil certainly build embouchure strength.


any comments??
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steeler247
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps you should edit your post and remove his name so that you "don't offend him".
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see what's so negative. Sounds pretty close to Caruso to me. In any event, I don't think it's a good idea to start off with your teacher by telling him you don't like or don't agree with something in one of his books.
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jgadvert
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. Whats negative? I respect the man for his interpretation of these exercises.

The part about not using your tongue and keeping the corners firm.
Also the questionable suggestion of making these the last thing you do in your practice session.

I'd like to have a real Caruso teacher/disciple/former student etc. evaluate those pieces of instruction. I'll leave it at that.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In weightlifting you call this type of thing a "burnout set." Works great.
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TWEAK
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i leave his name in in case anyone knows who he is, because he is a good teacher, and i was hoping that people that know him may read this.

but what i find questionable is that:
-he calls it an embouchure builder
-no 6 notes
-maintaining a "correct embouchure" at all times
-too much use of the word "embouchure" as the main focus of the whole thing and only one mention of tempo, but nothing about subdividing
-nothing about disregarding pitch, etc etc
-playing it at the end of a session
-playing it "correctly" (again, this seems to say that it has to sound good)

the whole basis is that it sounds like you have to keep your focus on the "embouchure" instead of focusing only on keeping the blow steady and subdividing.
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sdgtpt
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relax...

you may have to read some of his text with a slight filter on.

Don't get so wrapped up in the words that you miss the message.

Vocabulary is a very important part of what we do, but if you understand the point of what he is trying to get at and you choose to filter out some of the excess verbage like "correct" or "embouchure" etc.. then that is up to you.

Remember that there isn't a single teacher that speaks "THE GOSPEL" when it comes to learning a musical instrument. What is important is your eagerness to seek out your own individual weakness and turn them into your strengths.

Drink a coke, listen to a good CD, and relax about this teacher thing... it really isn't your place.
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gennaro
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

perhaps you can simply advice him to have a look in this forum.... he will understand alone your perplessity....
perhaps it is better you delete this post before give him your advice

gennaro
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bigpatg
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tweak this is the proper way to preform theses excercises i studied with carmine caruso for 5 years he was known as (jimmy ) to his students and was a master at correcting physical faults with students as a matter of fact the first few lessons focused on just that correction this theme continued through out your stay with him try these lessons as written in 4 weeks your tone will improve your range will improve and your endurance will greatly improve as well. if you doubt find the material in print and play it as written and instructed by carmine. these excercises continue in thirds fourths fifths and sixths so dont be alarmed.
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bigpatg
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sound is not the main focus here development of the facial muscles is the key here as a matter of fact jimmy or carmine as we kow him stressed the matter of dot paying attention to sound quality because as you progress no sound may come from the horn at all but he recommends that you keep going until the excercise is complete.
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PhattyRoses
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Tweak here, this guy definetely got the information 2nd or third (or more) hand and it just isn't right.

There are a lot of myths as to what Carmine was actually teaching. I think you correctly identified all the errors in his summary.

How to approach him? That I"m not really sure about. Maybe you could just ask to explain some of the things to you because they are different than what you've studied. Maybe that will open up a dialogue that you can use to introduce the correct ideas.

Good luck!
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen many, many interpretations of Caruso by Caruso disciples which stray in some way from the canon. Look at Findley's book. Frink has a lot stuff in her book that Caruso didn't teach ( those elaborate bends and "non-bends"). You gotta be pragmatic..If it works for you, then its good
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gennaro
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigpatg wrote:
tweak this is the proper way to preform theses excercises i studied with carmine caruso for 5 years he was known as (jimmy ) to his students and was a master at correcting physical faults with students as a matter of fact the first few lessons focused on just that correction this theme continued through out your stay with him try these lessons as written in 4 weeks your tone will improve your range will improve and your endurance will greatly improve as well. if you doubt find the material in print and play it as written and instructed by carmine. these excercises continue in thirds fourths fifths and sixths so dont be alarmed.


This seems me quite different with the approach and description of the method presented both here and in Flexus (where corner can be relaxed...). I think that more comments and explanation are welcome....
Are this kind of muscle building (almost isometric) only for the first weeks (and probabily for really weak embrochure) or is it the way for ever?

a little bit confusing....

Gennaro
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PH
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is dramatically different in focus than the way Carmine taught this exercise. I agree with you that it places way too much emphasis on strengthening and no emphasis on timing and coordination (the main focus of CC practice).

You are correct in saying that this is the embodiment of all the misconceptions many people develop who learned these exercises through 2nd and 3rd hand sources. These are the very same misconceptions that cause people to see negative results from (psuedo) "Caruso practice" and the primary reason many think Caruso is about muscle building.

---a very bad thing IMO.

The best thing you could do is tell the teacher and the class about this forum and the excellent supplementary and explanatory material that has accrued here over time.
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigpatg wrote:
sound is not the main focus here development of the facial muscles is the key here as a matter of fact jimmy or carmine as we kow him stressed the matter of dot paying attention to sound quality because as you progress no sound may come from the horn at all but he recommends that you keep going until the excercise is complete.


Someone told me that Jimmy was Carmine's brother. Carmine took over Jimmy's office at some point and left the sign on the door.
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tomba51
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH wrote:

Someone told me that Jimmy was Carmine's brother. Carmine took over Jimmy's office at some point and left the sign on the door.


Yes, Pat is correct. Jimmy was Carmine's brother. Carmine never bothered to change the sign on the door when he took over the office.

Tom
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JoeCool
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to exhort anyone who is not into Caruso or this forum to please stop posting their opinions here.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe, the subject of the thread lies more in how to approach this instructor about what he views as a discrepancy, not the actual teachings themselves.

Personally, I would simply let it go, or maybe you could make mention of it by saying something like:

"Mr. Kilpatrick, I read your manual and there's some really good stuff in there. (always a good way to start) I noticed that you have mentioned the '6-notes' study from Carmine Caruso and I wanted to ask about your wording and description regarding it." And then take it from there. He may have very specific reasons that he wrote what he did regarding the Caruso information, and by coming to him with the subject as a matter of curiosity about his philosophical approach to instruction, it's much more likely to be a productive meeting of minds.

Who knows, you might just learn a few things about his philosophies on playing brass, and probably a thing or two about who this guy is and what makes him tick, and you also may wind up with a friend in the process. If you approach this thing with an open mind and don't turn it into an argument, it can be beneficial to all involved.

But, to approach him with the idea that you think he's wrong....that's just not a good idea in my opinion, especially since I have read that there really is no specific "Caruso Method" and that Carmine tailored what he taught specifically to the student - it could be that your Mr. Kilpatrick had an instructor who WAS a Caruso student, and he's passing along information that was taught to him by that instructor - sort of second-hand Caruso, if you will.
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PH
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points, Patrick.

Diplomacy and accuracy are both called for.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH wrote:
Good points, Patrick.

Diplomacy and accuracy are both called for.

Well Pat, we both know that I personally have had to learn some hard lessons in diplomacy. I've put my foot in my mouth more times than I can count and I slowly have to keep telling myself that sometimes it's best to just not say anything, or REALLY temper my wording if I feel that I must.

I'm curious to know why Mr. Kilpatrick has the approach that he has on the Caruso material if it's not really in line with what is generally accepted as Caruso teachings, but I would venture to guess that there IS a specific reason - whether or not that reasoning is valid, well, who knows?
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Last edited by trickg on Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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