ISOMETRICS

[_bugleboy]

I am wondering whether isometric exercises are truly helpful or just a lot of smoke blown out there that cloud up the whole issue of embouchure development. Also, if anyone has any of these exercises that they would like to share, I wouldn't mind experimenting.

I just tried one isometric drill recommended by Clint McGlaughlin over on TPIN. The drill was to hold a pencil straight out for 3-4 minutes a day with just the lips. I did this for a little over six minutes with no particular discomfort and so I stopped. Still can't figure out what, if any, relevance the exerecise had to do with trumpet playing. I gripped the pencil in front of my teeth so the only thing holding it was my lips.

I am under the impression that isometrics are beneficial for other muscles in the body, but do they really have any impact on building trumpet chops? Any experts (physical trainers or therapists) out there?

Comments in general?

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-03-31 19:40 ]

[pedaltonekid]

My personal belief is that functional strength training is much more effective than isometrics. I grant that isometrics could probably be used to develop strength in certain muscles/muscle groups but unless they are exactly the same muscle(s) used as when playing the results may not be what is desired.
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Best Regards, Play Well!!

[brnt99]

To Charly Raymond--You are a professional trumpet player playing all of the time, and doing Caruso exercises regularily. The muscles in your chops are probably pretty well developed.As a relative new comer I can tell you that its not easy.I personally dont do this exercise, as I find the Caruso exercises strengthen my chops. (I know that is not what they are specifically intended to do.)To get to an even playing field you should stick a ten pound weight on the end of that pencil.lol

[_bugleboy]

Brnt99,

You know, that is kind of my point. I seem to be able to do the isometric described in the opening post. And this is without ever having done it before. This capability, it appears, has developed as a by product of practicing Caruso for many years. The Caruso stuff has made it possible for me to play a lot of things on the trumpet AND do an isometric drill. I wonder if spending years doing isometric drills would also prepare me to play the trumpet, or would the time be better spent doing Caruso or some other regimen that is more trumpet focused. I don't know. Pedaltonekid made a good point about functional strength training.

Maybe we'll get some answers here.

CR





_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-03-31 22:35 ]

[jgadvert]

I feel like (hope) the pencil exercise uses most of the muscles in a closed lip setting. There are times were I wonder if isometrics are one of the BEST things to be included in my regimen. Can anybody share other beneficial isometric exercises.

[brnt99]

I'll bite into this Charley. For all you or anyone knows there are thousands of professional trumpet players who benefited from isometric exercises. For all you or anyone knows there are thousands of mechanics and doctors and teachers and carpenters out there who started off being trumpet players, who tried Caruso exercises, and flopped because of it.Nobody knows.I think I know where you are coming from. There is a lot of hazy, fuzzy, half assed quasi scientific truths about the art and skill of being a trumpet player that when you examine them closely and think them through they don't stand up.There is a lot of ancedotal evidence about such and such metheod, but little in the way of scientific evidence. I think the only way to get any kind of solid truth someone would have to do some long range double blind studies.Like have students in a school system in Texas be taught one metheod, and students from similar socio-economic background in New York taught a differant metheod, and after ten years see which metheod was more successful.

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-23 21:30 ]

[_Don Herman]

I sometimes do them, and feel they help somewhat. FWIW, I can't do The Pencil Thang (TPT) for more than a minute or two. I suspect I'm using too much pressure when doing it (like most everything else, natch!) As I understand them, one of the reasons to do them is to speed development of the muscles used for playing. This will clearly be more beneficial to CP tpt hacks like me and students with a dream than to professional players, or even dedicated amateurs, as we need the help and ya'll don't. Playing and doing CC (Carmine Caruso) etc. will also build the chops, and even better because the most appropriate muscles etc. are targeted -- the ones used when playing! Isometrics might not be training the right muscles to be used (or, useful?) the right way, but I think for overall chop building they help. In my case, doing the we/wow thing very briefly helps me recover after a hard blow, too, about as much as horseflaps.

I've posted previously about the relevance or not of isometrics and lip buzzing (sans mpc) with respect to building the "right" muscles for your embouchure. The short answer: I think they help generally build the chops but don't help with the fine tuning needed to actual play the horn. Overuse can certainly cause stiffness, since you may tire out the muscles and they take time (24 hours or more if you really push them) to recover.

"My" exercises (provided by Pops and others through the years -- these are the ones I use the most) include:

(1) TPT - Place pencil between lips, blunt (eraser) end touches then just off the teeth, in playing position (or as near as you can get). Hold straight out as long as possible without wetting underwear, or thereabouts. Repeat. Also useful is gently bobbing the pencil up and down.

(2) Say "wee" as fast as possible, over and over, going from extended pucker to a smile lip position. Go until stopping point reached as above. Focus lips to a point on "w" of "wee".

(3) As above, but say "wow" instead to really spread chops and cheeks out. Builds facial muscles.

There are more, but I don't do isometrics all the time and when I do three is usually my limit. Does this really help? Beats me. I'm just trying to learn to crack walnuts with my lips like all the kool screechers and guys who can play twenty hours at a stretch.

HTH - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[Goldenchops55]

I have been playing trumpet for 4 years and I think that Isometrics help a lot. I am trying to develop a lot of strength in my corners and abdominal muscles(tasteebros. way). I do the pencil thing a lot and I can hold it for 2 minutes and 45 seconds at the longest. I do them during class all the time out of sheer boredom. I feel they are a great way to build muscles that are used to play the trumpet. Oh, and Caruso is excellent.

[walter]

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 07:52 ]

[_Don Herman]

Hi Walter,

I'm not a full-time player (gross understatement; it's arguable whether I'm any sort of player a'tall!) and so can't do long tones as much as I'd like. I agree that they, or Caruso, or the Irons etc. exercises, or most anything with the trumpet rather than without, is probably better than isometrics.

But, I can do the isometrics on the way to work (I'm not brave enough to do something like buzzing which provides more of a distraction while driving), at my desk during the day, etc. I do them when I []can't[/i] play the horn -- for me, that's the point! I can't spend as much time as I'd like on the horn, so I like anything which helps that I can do the rest of the time. I wouldn't think of substituting isometrics for work on the horn -- my practice time is too limited, too precious, for that!

Good reminder, though, to use the horn when we can! Nothing like the real thing...

All the best - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[walter]

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 07:53 ]

[_Don Herman]

On 2002-04-15 04:48, walter wrote:

(1) Isometric buzzing for even relatively short periods is just fine, with or without the mouthpiece.

Actually, while I do buzz sans mpc, I tend to buzz differently than with the mpc. My teacher starts me out buzzing the mpc, and I've incorporated that into my warmup. But, he, Arnold Jacobs and I feel that buzzing without the mpc, save for a quick check, isn't really helpful and may be harmful (in the sense that the wrong muscles are being trained and/or in the wrong way, not that physical harm may result). Pops suggests buzzing without the mpc, but only for a short time, to get the "closed embouchure" feeling.

(2) If you want to buzz while in your car, why don't you move to a more crowded area with lots of stoplights ... especially lights that are badly timed.

Well, gee, Walter, while I'd really like to leave my foothills home with it's trees, solitude, and view of Pike's Peak, so I could do more buzzing, I reckon I'll just have to stay here and suffer. In the interest of helping out all the other trumpet players, though, I heartily encourage them to move to the cities (or, stay there) so they can benefit from increased isometric exercises.

LOL! - Don (at 7500' in the Rockies, every note's a high note )
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[Murray]

It seems that by doing isometric excersises, you are using two groups of antagonistic muscles, and having them work against each other, so that in effect "nothing happens". Perhaps these musles end up being strengthen, but why can't they also be strenghtened by using them the way they are supposed to be used? When we talk about the respiratory muscles for example, we have certain muscles that are used when we inhale, and an opposite group that we use to exhale. Having those two groups fighting each other will end up meaning that very little air actually gets blown, although you have the sensation that you are really working hard. You can really end up hurting yourself this way...maybe this has nothing to do with the above post, but trumpet players to tend to get into isometric states while they are playing, and not because they want to. Maybe by practicing isometric states, your muscles end up "memorizing" these states, and will revert back to them when they aren't wanted.

[walter]

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 07:54 ]

[_Don Herman]

Murray: I don't know that isometric exercises will lead to incorrect muscle memory; I was concerned more with buzzing sans mouthpiece. I think that the isometric exercises and actual buzzing are different enough, even when you form an embouchure to do them properly, that the isometrics probably ain't gonna' mess you up. Free buzzing, otoh, puts you (or, rather me) in the mindset to cause problems, imho. When I buzz, I'm thinking about playing and transferring this to the horn. When I free buzz, the lip position and such that I use don't always correspond to the embouchure I form with a mpc. Thus my concern. FWIW, Pops (and others, I'd guess) use free buzzing to help get a feel for a closed setting. But, even he suggests free buzzing only a couple of minutes. I honestly have no idea if his concern with extended free buzzing is the same as mine.

As for the respiration cycle, I think Walter did a pretty good job. To go further, or just get a slightly different explanation, read Arnold Jacobs.

Walter: While I appreciate your kind offer to add congestion to my neck of the woods, it so happens that recent growth has provided quite a bit, even without stoplights, and the flashing lights would likely confuse the deer, foxes, and bears around the neighborhood, so I'm afraid I'll have to decline. Should I need to add congestion in the future, I will surely look you up.

Onwards, if that's what this is - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[Emb_Enh]

Mr.Charly R wrote>>>

>>>I just tried one isometric drill recommended by Clint McGlaughlin over on TPIN. The drill was to hold a pencil straight out for 3-4 minutes a day with just the lips. I did this for a little over six minutes with no particular discomfort and so I stopped. Still can't figure out what, if any, relevance the exerecise had to do with trumpet playing. I gripped the pencil in front of my teeth so the only thing holding it was my lips. <<<

...I have tried this one and could only do it for 2.5 minutes.

Sometimes being musclebound ain't the thing!
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"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[walter]

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 07:54 ]

[_Don Herman]

On 2002-04-16 12:23, walter wrote:

(1) What type of mindset do you get in when you free buzz? Does this lead to some type of libertine notions that cause some perverse relations between your embouchure and your mouthpiece?

(2) In other words, any damage that results from free buzzing would be do to over-doing it rather than because of doing it.

These two points will serve to highlight my concerns. When I do the isometric things, "we" "wow" and TPT (the pencil thing), I'm not really thinking of buzzing the mpc or making sounds (music, one would hope!) So, I don't feel I'm making a mental connection between the exercises and my actual embouchure formation, or only a loosely.

OTOH, when I free buzz, I'm thinking "this is how I want to do it into the mpc" and I'm frequently buzzing along with the radio (the music on the radio, not the buzzing static ). But, the way I free buzz and the way I form my embouchure are not exactly the same. This is the point made by Jacobs -- I can try to find the exact reference later, but it's from the book Song and Wind. So, my concern is that free buzzing may transfer a new, or different, embouchure muscle memory compared to what I play with. In my case, free buzzing requires much more tenseness than what's required to play, because the mpc isn't there to help support the lips, and the horn isn't there to add some resistance (i.e. back pressure). So I end up with a slightly different embouchure for free buzzing than mpc buzzing. Make sense?

Pops sez this may be a good thing and helps train the player to get a closed setting. When I first started with my teacher (a Jacobs student), he had me do essentially a "Pops" exercise: start a buzz, and maintain it as I placed the mpc. This was replaced very quickly with mpc buzzing, and focusing on keeping the same pitch/sound as i started on the mpc, then gently inserted the mpc into the horn, still buzzing. Part of this is to learn pitch, i.e. the ability to see a note on a page and hear the sound rather than going through the intermediate step of recognizing "that's a G, so it should sound something like this" and letting the horn set the pitch for me.

So, I agree completely with (2) above. As for (1); well, hopefully not "perverse", but perhaps just improper. OK?

And, for me only (or those poor unfortunates like me, bless them!). You may well be using the same free buzzing and mpc buzzing embouchure, making my concern moot and/or inapplicable. This seems to be Pops goal, and for those who do it, that's great! I just worry that some may use free buzzing without enough thought about why. In some cases, it should help establish a closed setting, if that's what they want, and so fits the bill. For others, it may lead them down a path they might not wish to take (could even lead to the City, with all it';s stoplights, horrors! ).

Finally, Sir Walter sez:

(3) BTW: The stoplights would probably help to train your foxes and bears and sundry other beasts by preparing them for the inevitable onslaught of "civilization". Take your time to reconsider: helping your chops and forcing evolution at the same time. [My apologies to pre-Enlightenment readers.]

No, sir, I resist "civilization"! There's a reason I moved to the mountains (though I still work in the city) besides being able to keep the neighbors from hearing (and reporting to the local police) the sounds emanating from the practice room...
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO

[ This Message was edited by: Don Herman on 2002-04-16 12:53 ]

[walter]

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 07:55 ]