That was probably Barbara Donald. She is the former Mrs. Sonny Simmons and was on the "New Thing" scene in the '60s. I don't know what ever happened to her.
I hadn't heard of her before. Looked her up, she died in 2013. According to the article she hadn't played in a number of years. There are some things with her up on Youtube.
Masculine characteristics surely matter to a degree as far as the physical nature and mindset carried by great high note players. A combination of things have to converge with intangibles -- and the gal who best shows these traits of a stong athletic setup....is Tine Helseth. It's easy to sense physical power and presence lurking in reserve. But...
Gifted women soon realize they are presented with a golden goose if they can perform well in Concert halls today. Doing that consistently. A dbl C is not something she need bother with at all. But - imagine if there were several players like her at N. Texas state, with encouragent and dedication, the upper register ability would happen - if the anvil was struck just right.
The core question isn't being answered. It's complicated too, so I'd like to see the discussion try to address it.
Q:
Why do female trumpet players not play like Maynard etc... IE as high-note band leaders, when they are physically capable of it?
My thoughts:
They don't derive as much musical satisfaction from this type of playing.
The high note band leader thing has been done, and I'm growing tired of hearing -anyone- doing their best Maynard copy. Maynard was original, the copy-cats less so.
There's gotta be a physiological reason such as testosterone or something.
There isn't a living to be made - IMO - just doing the high note artist thing. I think that era has passed on and people are still hanging onto it. However, there is a living playing section/lead/studio/function band/military jobs etc etc... And those jobs are less likely to be lead by features high note trumpet, and less likely to lead anyone to fame. There's hundreds of guys doing these jobs that no-one has heard of, so equally valid - why aren't they Maynarding?
Anyone who thinks playing high is requiring a great deal of physical prowess is plain wrong. Anyone who thinks it is gender specific is wrong. I have 2 14y/o students - a guy and a girl. They are both at the same level on their instrument. I have taught both of them the same way. Both of them can play slurs to G above high C, and both of them will have a few years to make those notes sound acceptable and useable. The girl is about 100lbs, the guy is about 150lbs.
I watched a YouTube video of Tanya playing lead with Lincoln Centre. She sounded superb, accurate, swinging, great presence. I was listening to the video, not watching, and I clicked into it because I knew it wasn't Ryan's sound on lead, but I dug it and wanted to see who was playing. I wasn't surprised.
As for the limelight stuff, the band leader screamin trumpet thing. It's really gotta be more to do with the male psyche and testosterone to want to do that more. It's also a male dominated instrument, so you're naturally gonna see more of us doin that.
Anyway, that's long enough. Respect to all my trumpet playing family out there.
This is a 14-year old thread but I guess it is still up for discussion.
How many MALE trumpeters play like Maynard????
Just seems to me to be statistical. Out of all the male trumpet players that have ever been, there's been Maynard and .... who all do we consider his equal?? What percentage of all trumpet players ever are considered like Maynard?
How many women trumpet players have ever been? They have been discouraged from playing brass until recent years.
I think there will be a female equivalent to Maynard before long. She may be around now and people just won't admit it.
If not, perhaps we can look forward soon to a male who transitions to female and we can check off that important box!!
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:19 pm Post subject:
rothman wrote:
Masculine characteristics surely matter to a degree as far as the physical nature and mindset carried by great high note players. A combination of things have to converge with intangibles -- and the gal who best shows these traits of a stong athletic setup....is Tine Helseth. It's easy to sense physical power and presence lurking in reserve. But...
Gifted women soon realize they are presented with a golden goose if they can perform well in Concert halls today. Doing that consistently. A dbl C is not something she need bother with at all. But - imagine if there were several players like her at N. Texas state, with encouragent and dedication, the upper register ability would happen - if the anvil was struck just right.
The number of days I'd rather listen to a real musician like Tine Thing Helseth as opposed to some high note jock wailing away is.... every day. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Masculine characteristics surely matter to a degree as far as the physical nature and mindset carried by great high note players. A combination of things have to converge with intangibles -- and the gal who best shows these traits of a stong athletic setup....is Tine Helseth. It's easy to sense physical power and presence lurking in reserve. But...
Gifted women soon realize they are presented with a golden goose if they can perform well in Concert halls today. Doing that consistently. A dbl C is not something she need bother with at all. But - imagine if there were several players like her at N. Texas state, with encouragent and dedication, the upper register ability would happen - if the anvil was struck just right.
The number of days I'd rather listen to a real musician like Tine Thing Helseth as opposed to some high note jock wailing away is.... every day.
I think the whole premise of women players or all women ensembles for the sake of being all women is ridiculous.
Why make a novelty out of their gender, for gender's sake. If they can play well enough to get the gig: That's great. But to put them under a spotlight and say look at this woman playing trumpet, why not instead just say, look at this musician playing trumpet.
I think making a huge issue of a girl player and making remarks (or excuses) based on her gender, are inherently sexist. If you truly want equality, not special consideration, stop exploiting one's gender while promoting achievements.
Gender focus will just disqualify and minimize and lead people to think special considerations were made simply because of or in spite of gender.
In 2016, I'd hoped we could get passed this sort of thing. And just let the person who owns and earns the gig be judged only by merit.
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:06 pm Post subject:
trumpet.sanity wrote:
I think the whole premise of women players or all women ensembles for the sake of being all women is ridiculous... If you truly want equality, not special consideration, stop exploiting one's gender while promoting achievements.
Gender focus will just disqualify and minimize and lead people to think special considerations were made simply because of or in spite of gender.
I see where you're coming from, and maybe your environment really is progressive enough for this to make sense, but, at least where I live (which is a pretty progressive and tolerant place by most standards), I think pretty much all of my female brass playing colleagues would tell you that they run into some degree of discrimination from time to time.
If everyone treated women equally, I agree, there would be no reason for any groups or solo efforts to showcase how good female brass players are (aside from providing role models, which have historically been lacking), but in the actual world, where many people need to be convinced that this is true, I think there's a place for groups, conferences, etc., demonstrating the accomplishments of female brass players.
Why make a novelty out of their gender, for gender's sake. If they can play well enough to get the gig: That's great. But to put them under a spotlight and say look at this woman playing trumpet, why not instead just say, look at this musician playing trumpet.
That's all well and good and superficially seems like a perfectly logical and even noble assertion but you know, women have been second-class citizens for the whole of recorded human history. And you're quibbling because in 2016 when they form an all-female group, it's totally unfair?
And honestly, I'm not sure if you're just personally blind to it, but many of the Brass players I've met are not particularly women-friendly people in my experience. It is uncomfortably common in my experience to mention Tine Thing Helseth or Alison Balsom and the next words in the conversation are something to do with how much they'd like to sleep with them.
It's 2016 and the world has changed a lot in the last 100 years, but the trumpet world is still macho-as-hell. And marketing to men is still most reliable when sex is involved. It's sad, but you can't blame women for making the best of the still pretty screwed up world we live in.
You know, imagine if for example being a straight white man mean you had quite a few advantages in life, you'd take them, right? Well, actually, that's what happens, most of us just don't really realise it's happening because we never have to be on the other side and actually deal with the lack of all that. So before you go deciding whether or not equal rights means women should form all-women bands or not, you might want to just take a deep breath and consider that you're getting your man-vantages everyday of the year... and that you're frustrated because you can't also have the perks of being a woman while not having to deal with the crap.
Yes, the world is better than before in a lot of ways, but it's still a pretty screwed up place. It's easy to over looking the crappiness though if it doesn't effect you personally.[/quote]
Sounds like she's playing a very deep V cup, or a cornet---.like I said she plays all the notes, even the high D. But very odd sound.
I thought Beth may have played flugel on the low parts, but as I listened again seems maybe like the way it was recorded didn't capture the "highs" even the band and vocal sound that way.
Regardless, I think she sounds great!! Who of us can play like that? Not me, I'd donate a body part to play like that!
Why make a novelty out of their gender, for gender's sake. If they can play well enough to get the gig: That's great. But to put them under a spotlight and say look at this woman playing trumpet, why not instead just say, look at this musician playing trumpet.
That's all well and good and superficially seems like a perfectly logical and even noble assertion but you know, women have been second-class citizens for the whole of recorded human history. And you're quibbling because in 2016 when they form an all-female group, it's totally unfair?
And honestly, I'm not sure if you're just personally blind to it, but many of the Brass players I've met are not particularly women-friendly people in my experience. It is uncomfortably common in my experience to mention Tine Thing Helseth or Alison Balsom and the next words in the conversation are something to do with how much they'd like to sleep with them.
It's 2016 and the world has changed a lot in the last 100 years, but the trumpet world is still macho-as-hell. And marketing to men is still most reliable when sex is involved. It's sad, but you can't blame women for making the best of the still pretty screwed up world we live in.
You know, imagine if for example being a straight white man mean you had quite a few advantages in life, you'd take them, right? Well, actually, that's what happens, most of us just don't really realise it's happening because we never have to be on the other side and actually deal with the lack of all that. So before you go deciding whether or not equal rights means women should form all-women bands or not, you might want to just take a deep breath and consider that you're getting your man-vantages everyday of the year... and that you're frustrated because you can't also have the perks of being a woman while not having to deal with the crap.
Yes, the world is better than before in a lot of ways, but it's still a pretty screwed up place. It's easy to over looking the crappiness though if it doesn't effect you personally.
[/quote]
No, I never said anything was "unfair". I said that by singling out and focusing on somebody's success because of gender...is by definition, sexist.
"Man-vantages"?? First, terms like that, and "man-splaining " are modern day feminist lingo used to insult, minimize, and emasculate. When using those kinds of terms, how do you expect the person you're talking with to take those terms? They are meant to be hostile, and provocative and demeaning.
"The world is macho"? Men are macho, by definition. That's not going to change.
Women have become leaders in every facet of power in today's modern age. Presidents, in the US Supreme Court justices, State, Judeges, Mayors, Governors, prosecutors and defense attorneys. Movie stars, singers, tv personalities, business owners, CEOs, Wall Street executives, and brokers, teachers administrators, heads of unions, college professors, military leaders including generals and admirals, construction workers, and owners, and leaders in the arts of all levels.
And I commend them all on their successes and achievements based on merit. If we really want equality, focusing on gender just diminishes their achievements.
If a woman trumpeter is enjoyable to listen to, I'll buy a ticket, or pay a cover charge, or buy a record to hear her. But I won't go out of my way to just see a trumpeter because of the bits they have under their pants.
The core question isn't being answered. It's complicated too, so I'd like to see the discussion try to address it.
Q:
Why do female trumpet players not play like Maynard etc... IE as high-note band leaders, when they are physically capable of it?
By "playing like Maynard" do you mean hitting some high notes or the total picture of what he could do?
If there's a female who's capable of genuinely playing like prime Maynard or any of the myriad high-note cats since Maynard I haven't heard them. I've seen the clips above of the young lady in the practice room and the album cut. Totally different situation than belting out Maynard Ferguson in front of a band as one chart in a tough concert along with doing the rest of what Maynard did in the section. For that matter *has* a woman ever played Maynard Ferguson in concert or on an album?
Liesl Whitaker is as strong a female lead player as I've heard. She's a damned solid player but she's no in-his-heyday Maynard.
I believe the reason is the pretty obvious one of basic physiology. The same reason why the best woman golfer in the world can't compete with the best men golfers etc. I don't believe that anyone who had the ability wouldn't use it.
There's the interface with the horn - lip and jaw structure, and the air generation system. Look at men's and women's faces - they're fundamentally different. Of course that's only part of the equation.
No, not all men can do it either. High-note players were blessed with the right tools and figured out how to use them in a way that lets them do what they do. But none of it happens unless they've also got the air generation system behind it. Men's and women's musculature and body chemistry are different - men for the most part have a lot more strength than a similarly-sized woman given a similar level of physical training.
How many women trumpeters have recorded the Michael Haydn trumpet concerto for an album? If any have I haven't found it. Presumably they're only going to record material for an album that they feel they can knock out of the park. I don't see that Tine Helseth or Alison Balsom have recorded it and I'll be surprised if they ever do. I'm aware of one performance of it by any female player. If anyone knows of others I'd be curious to hear them. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:22 pm; edited 3 times in total
People have said "there is only one Maynard", and I disagree. I can think of a dozen or more players that can do everything Maynard did.
But his showmanship and flair, was a large part of the equation beyond just high register stuff that was a major part of his success.
And that's just high note soloist stuff. But strong lead trumpet playing with chops to last four hours on a job, plus being able to cover style and interpretation and nail the occasional high A or even double C, there are tons of men, coast to coast, in every major city or every State that are quite capable.
But I can think of less than a few women that can cover the same demands mentioned above. In fact I can only think of one.
I've known lead players that are big dudes, big beer belly, six foot tall 250lbs, and I've know tiny, skinny little dudes that each can play the heck out of a lead book and paste double As and Cs.
I just don't know if it's a physical thing with the ladies not really being strong lead players, and a complete absence of "high note ala MF" soloists, or if it's more cultural, and our society's definitions of roles.
I'd love to see more ladies in those roles...but they gotta earn their way there like everybody else. Gender be damned.
Why make a novelty out of their gender, for gender's sake. If they can play well enough to get the gig: That's great. But to put them under a spotlight and say look at this woman playing trumpet, why not instead just say, look at this musician playing trumpet.
In this era where the audience for music made by people playing horns is so tiny compared to the audience for pop crap it's great that people are paying attention to trumpet players at all. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:57 am Post subject:
I doubt this will change any minds, but here's my two cents: I play for a living, and many of my colleagues are female brass players. Many of the colleagues who I admire the most, especially from a musical and general playing efficiency standpoint, are female. I'm sure there are women for whom this is not true, but most of my female professional colleagues are extremely focused on the bigger musical picture - balance, phrasing, style, tone, intonation, and less so on extremes of dynamic or range. This isn't to say that they don't have control of extremes of dynamic or range, but that the music tends to come first, and IMO, extreme ranges and dynamics are rarely the best way to serve the bigger musical picture, so double anythings aren't a big part of their music palettes. This is probably obvious from what I've already said, but, honestly, if I had to choose which I would rather listen to or play with - people who are extremely focused on playing the music as well as possible as a group, and an individual part of the group, or people who can play really loud double Cs for four hours, I'd find it an easy choice.
Lots of people are saying "I'd rather hear somebody playing great music instead of high notes" etc
Why can't it be both? Lots of players that have figured out how to be good commercial players with strong high chops, are also quite capable of playing all other styles succcessfully as well.
I don't think that if somebody has a good double C, that somehow delegitimizes their other abilities or musicianship.
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