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Quivering Lip


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Trumpetlover
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Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello All,
I have a question about something that has been recently occuring quite often. While I'm playing my chops will begin to quiver on their own. Almost like a muscle spasm. The worst part is that I can not control it. Also, it seems to occur when I'm fatigued, and/or move the horn when I'm playing. What is causing this? What can I do to make it go away?
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, a cause for quivering muscles can be magnesium or potassium shortage- try eating more bananas
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JohnL
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is your mouthpiece sitting on "four legs"? If not, this could be your problem.
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BeboppinFool
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Joined: 28 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2004-03-27 18:43, Trumpetlover wrote:
Hello All,
I have a question about something that has been recently occuring quite often. While I'm playing my chops will begin to quiver on their own. Almost like a muscle spasm. The worst part is that I can not control it. Also, it seems to occur when I'm fatigued, and/or move the horn when I'm playing. What is causing this? What can I do to make it go away?

As always, a symptom such as this can be best diagnosed by a personal observation from a qualified teacher.

I will say that the first thing I thought of when reading this is something that Doc always warned us about, and that is that a chin or lip vibrato can, after a period of years, turn into an involuntary response such as you've described. This is why he always discouraged the use of a chin or lip vibrato and encouraged the use of a hand vibrato.

I observed a trumpeter recently who had this problem and he claimed to not us a chin or lip vibrato. He didn't ask me for help, so I didn't offer any. But I'm not sure what I would've told him had he asked for help.

We need some other Reinhardt-oriented answers here on the Reinhardt Forum. Anybody?

Rich
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bgibson
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to see you play to say what is the cause of this problem.
Rich, remember that Doc said "the uncontrollable jaw or lip vibrato is one thing I cannot cure." (I believe it was something along those lines)
I would start by checking the "four legs" or "tripod" for upstream players.
Also the aperture.
Are you playing wet or dry?????????
You need to have a former Reinhardt student watch you play in person to make an accurate judgement.
Any chance of you being in NC in April for the festival?
WEG
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of you might remember Trumpetlover's videos from last year or so when he was a student of mine. TL is a Type IV embouchure.

Like Bill, I need to see this before I could offer any suggestions, and I'm not even certain I know what to do about this.

One thing I would like to suggest you check, just in case, is extra movement every time you take a breath. I seem to recall that you like to bring your horn up when you take a breath and then crash the mouthpiece back on your lips. That could be part of the cause, but I dunno.

How's everything else going, otherwise? How are the high chops coming together? Have you defeated your "high C break point" or do you still have trouble slurring accross that pitch?

Dave W.
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Trumpetlover
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Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank You, All
I want to extend my appreciation to all those who have taken the time to offer suggestions/possible solutions. Please keep them coming! As for Wilktone (aka Doc) thanks for replying man!! I'll try to send you a personal e-mail one of these days. Just been really busy.
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Trumpetlover
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My apologizes for the late response.

This is in response to bgibson's questions and anyone else who may want to know. I am a type IV upstream player. I would need to check the "tripod?" Also, I play wet and have always done so. I can't get a sound out dry. How would I check my aperature?
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scream
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Trumpetlover,

I did a session in January without much of a warmup. It wasn't demanding range wise, mainly in the staff and not technically difficult. I had a quivering lip (incredibly annoying) which I was able to correct by warming up properly during a break. That allowed me to "find my legs". I wasn't setting my lower left leg and because of that slightly shifted my placement to my right (we're talking millimeters here). I was able to continue without a hitch. If you may recall, I am a Type IV, upstream player.

Make sure you are getting a proper warm up in with the idea of "finding your legs". I do the Puffy Cheek Routine everyday to get the jaw in the right position and help get those legs in the right place. I have never been more consistant in my life because of that drill and paid for it by leaving it out that day. Another good drill would be the Stuffy Mute Routine. They are a couple of good "knock it in" drills. I'm only recommending these two because of what you described. Seeing you in action would be much better, however my experience with this problem leads me in this direction.

I hope this lends some insight....
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GTM
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting because I, too, have / am experiencing this. I have been experiencing this for a few months now...well, on second thought, probably longer than that! Yes, I remember...it was when Rich Willey had me try to play a few notes for him!! No warm up, no nothing...tried to play a third space C,...and it happened!! The quivering lip! It was Rich I tell ya! He did it to me!!

All kidding aside, I attributed that "episode" to mainly being nervous! Here lately, however, I seem to get the "quivering lip" only when playing the lower notes, say, 1st line E and lower. It doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen nevertheless.

SO, I will be following this post very closely for any ideas and suggestions!

(Rich, you know that I was only kidding about the above and that I really luv ya, right?)

Blessings,
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, in reading this post this morning, something Doc once told me came to mind. He told me of a guy who was having little success month after month, and one day the guy was reading his handouts from Doc and tried putting more "weight" on his lower lip than usual. That's not exactly the way Doc said it, but the bottom line was, suddenly the guy was able to play better than ever by putting the "weight" of the mouthpiece on the lower lip.

Worth a try?

Rich
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bgibson
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich;
Would you also add:
"without receding your lower jaw while so doing"?
WEG
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DaveWing530
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Joined: 27 Jun 2006
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Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys,

This is so great for me to read because I have been having this same problem. It has become incredibly frustrating and has been progressively getting worse. It is the same type of quivering that occurs from being nervous, but it is while I am just practicing alone. My quiver occurs mostly in the staff while playing at a medium to soft dynamic. If it helps, I am a lead trumpet player so most of my gig's are semi-demanding (up to high G's but nothing more than that -I'm not a superstar I have always exercised a lot of caution in making sure that I take good care of my chops ex. not overblowing all the time, RESTING enough while practicing to develop range, practicing at all dynamics, etc. I am a IIIB type as well. I understand that the best help would be to have a reinhardt "clinician" check it out personally, but any ideas for me as a IIIB? I'm looking forward to hear any advice you guys could give me!! Thanks

btw, I'm happy to hear someone else is going through this as well and I am not the only one. I was fearing that I was losing control of my muscles and wouldn't be able to play trumpet anymore!


Dave
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DaveWing530
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh wow, I realized this post is about 7 years old... perhaps I should post a new topic?
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You say you're a IIIB... That's fne but I prefer to type people myself, because very often players misdiagnose their own type AND their problems. Which can lead to more problems.

I'm in Maryland, not that far from PA, if you're interested.
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DaveWing530
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Doug,

That would be great! I have actually heard a lot about you and a few of my close friends have recently gone down to visit you and have been doing great since. I would very much like to come down and visit for the occasional quiver issue that I have been having as well as correct playing in general. I'll send you my email and phone number and hopefully we can get in touch soon! Thanks

Dave
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airdyn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaveWing530 wrote:
Hi guys,

. My quiver occurs mostly in the staff while playing at a medium to soft dynamic. If it helps, I am a lead trumpet player so most of my gig's are semi-demanding (up to high G's but nothing more than that -I'm not a superstar :) btw, I'm happy to hear someone else is going through this as well and I am not the only one. I was fearing that I was losing control of my muscles and wouldn't be able to play trumpet anymore!


Dave


So many things to consider re: the lip quiver. One thing comes to mind that Doc said: High note players (lead players included) seldom have any embouchure problems per se. Many playing probems occur when the good "solid" 4 leg-player (or 3 for a IV) plays in the middle and low regiisters and lets up on the mouthpiece pressure. The ideal is to play in all registers with practically the same mouthpiece pressure, and especially not letting up on that pressure in the middle and low registers. All hell breaks loose, as Doc would say. One thing about using mouthpiece pressure in the high register (puckering of course, supporting the air, and "press to neutralize, not just to press" sort of thing) and that is that the "legs" MUST be there!
So, perhaps the quiver is from the lack of mouthpiece stability due to lack of mouthpiece weight in the lower registers.
DS
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. I would say that every case I have seen of a quiver or instability in the middle or low range was accompanied by insufficient mouthpiece pressure, especially on the lower lip/teeth/jaw. The solution isn't always quite as direct as using more pressure, but that's a large part of it. There are usually multiple issues that contribute to the problem (or symptom, depending on how you look at it).
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might also be worthwhile for you to check out Dave Wilken's videos. He has one subject who develops an uncontrollable quiver and an unstable embouchure when he tries to play as the wrong embouchure type. It seems that, in his case, the quiver is caused by the musculature of his face trying really hard to work in a very inefficient position.

When Dave has him switch to his natural "type", the quiver disappears instantly.

If you're anywhere near Doug or Dave, you should definitely go see them! You'll thank yourself later.
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tim_wolf
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

airdyn wrote:


So many things to consider re: the lip quiver. One thing comes to mind that Doc said: High note players (lead players included) seldom have any embouchure problems per se. Many playing probems occur when the good "solid" 4 leg-player (or 3 for a IV) plays in the middle and low regiisters and lets up on the mouthpiece pressure. The ideal is to play in all registers with practically the same mouthpiece pressure, and especially not letting up on that pressure in the middle and low registers. All hell breaks loose, as Doc would say. One thing about using mouthpiece pressure in the high register (puckering of course, supporting the air, and "press to neutralize, not just to press" sort of thing) and that is that the "legs" MUST be there!
So, perhaps the quiver is from the lack of mouthpiece stability due to lack of mouthpiece weight in the lower registers.
DS


A few years ago there was an article in the ITG journal about mouthpiece pressure. Some guys came up with a device that measured the amount of pressure a player was using. One thing they mentioned that relates to what Dave says is although top professionals used less pressure in the upper register than amateurs, they used MORE pressure in the lower register than the amateurs did.
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