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Embouchure Matter??



 
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Goldenchops55
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Joined: 24 Nov 2001
Posts: 216
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello all,
I am in my fourth week of Caruso and the results are ubelievable. Anyway, I have a question. If you are using Caruso, does it matter what type of embouchure you use? I have used a rolled in setting for about 5 months now, and it is great. Does embouchure matter, or will it all lead to the same place no matter what? I have a friend who wants to start taking up caruso, and he plays with the STRANGEST embouchure I have ever seen, I honestly can't tell how he gets sound out of his trumpet. I can't even explain it, but he is a very good trumpet player. My final question is, does it matter what kind of setting you use with Caruso, will you see the same results no matter what?
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5530
Location: Bloomington Indiana

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No matter what kind of embouchure you use or how strange your set-up you should just do the calisthenics with your normal embouchure and everyday way of playing.

As you do the calisthenics follow the four rules carefully and do not be results conscious or embouchure conscious in any way.

You might notice that your embouchure makes adjustments-sometimes very strange ones-in the course of doing the calisthenics. Do not try to either encourage this or inhibit these changes. Simply observe them and follow the four rules.

Over time the calisthenics will cause subtle changes to work their way into your playing. I know that when I look at pictures of myself playing in 1977 and compare them to photos from 1980 that it appears that I had undergone a radical embouchure change. However, I had not consciously done this. The daily practice of the calisthenics caused my embouchure to evolve into something that was more balanced and efficient.

Stay the course and use the force!
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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 2865

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goldenchops,

*** If you are using Caruso, does it matter what type of embouchure you use? I have used a rolled in setting for about 5 months now, and it is great. Does embouchure matter, or will it all lead to the same place no matter what? ***

The short answer is, yes, embouchure does matter; it can slow you down.

I'm reading between the lines here, but I think you have hit on a very important and confusing issue. And there is very little in MCFB to really help. On p.54 Carmine says,

"However, younger students should make believe they have a thread on their lip; spitting it out will assist them in assuming the proper attack position."

When you spit a thread off your lip it will create a short buzz. To play the trumpet the embouchure needs to be able to sustain that buzz. When I asked Carmine one time what I was supposed to do to start a note, he said, "Do this." And he buzzed his lips for a couple of seconds............. To assist a student in developing a "buzzing" embouchure he would assign extensive lip to mouthpiece to horn buzzing exercises based out of the Schlossberg Daily Drills book. He definitely wanted the student to do HIS exercises (the calisthenics) with a buzzing embouchure. And then do anything you want when you play music.

So here we are, somewhat, with practicing one way and playing another. If it bothers you to do this, then don't do it. When you get the pedals incorporated into your practice schedule, they will force your lips into different positions anyway, and pretty much address this issue in a more involuntary way.

Players that have never had the "what do I do when I put the horn on my face" issue, this kind of problem is not easy to understand. I've been down that road, however, and I believe it was the single biggest problem I ever had to overcome.

So what do YOU do? Keep using that rolled in (whatever that means to you) embouchure when you play music. But use a lip buzzing setting when you do Caruso stuff. But ONLY when you use Caruso. If you can't buzz, keep repeating the "thread on the lip" idea. If none of this is making sense to you, then ask some more Qs, or, maybe I have read too much into your question to begin with. But what I'm talking about is a very real issue for a lot of players. The "naturals" will never no what it is, but it is definitely a big problem for those who have it.

CR
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Goldenchops55
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Joined: 24 Nov 2001
Posts: 216
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Raymond,
I am not really following what you are saying. What is the difference in a my rolled in embouchure and a buzzing one? My embouchure is similar to what Jeff Smiley teaches, I believe. I just don't really follow what you are saying.
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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 2865

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If what I said doesn't make any sense then disregard it. One thing you should avoid doing, however, is trying to apply any other teaching method to the Caruso calisthenics. The best advice when doing Caruso is to just put the horn on your lips and blow. If you want more specific directions refer to the previous post.
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Goldenchops55
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Joined: 24 Nov 2001
Posts: 216
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2002 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH,
I have noticed my embouchure moving around and doing all kinds of things during the Six note study, Seconds, Fourths, and Harmonic Scale. My embouchure has been moving around to where I use more top lip than bottom lip, but it is harder to play higher this way. Are the results of Caruso a total and complete embouchure change, without you even knowing it? Am I supposed to be having a hard time playing relativly easy notes, because my embouchure is moving around? How long until I will make a BIG change, and play "balanced"?
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5530
Location: Bloomington Indiana

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2002 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought that if there is a lot of movement when you first get involved with CC's calisthenics that it probably means that the unconscious mind is searching for a more effective set-up. I wouldn't worry. Eventually everything will stabilize at an approach that is a balanced & effective way to play. For some this means an embouchure adjustment. for others a change in how you use your tongue, or your air, or how you pivot, etc.

Don't worry about any of this. If you just do the studies consistently and adhere to the rules all of this will take care of itself.

If something doesn't succeed then your unconscious mind learns from that experience and files it under "approaches and strategies to avoid". If something works then the unconscious mind will be more likely to try to do that again and if it continues to work then it will become a habit through repetition.

KEEP THE CONSCIOUS MIND OUT OF THIS PROCESS! The conscious mind focuses on the four rules: timing, steady blow, etc. and that is all you think about.

Also, don't consciously (or self-consciously) try to make any of this migrate into your non-calisthenic playing and don't expect that either any "sucess" or transitional instability that you experience during the calisthenic paractice will also be present in your regular playing. When you are playing music you should just pick up the horn and play normally.
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