Sachse Studies Book

trmpet1 · Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:17 pm Post subject:

I was looking to get started with some transposition studies while I was away from school for the summer. I bought the sachse book and the bordogni vocalises. I was looking at the first excercises in the sachse book and was wondering how to proceed with them. Study 1 is in F major and the starting note would be a low F three ledger lines below the staff. The directions for the study say to transpose to C, D, Eb, E, and F. If I'm playing the study on C trumpet I don't have that pitch available to me without using a pedal tone. How am I supposed to get started with the transposition it it trumpet in C or should I play the exercize in the key of C major?

Thanks for all of the help I really appreciate it.

MannyLaureano · Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:16 pm Post subject:

Back in the stone age we used an interesting instrument for these studies.

I believe it dates back to a primordial time and the remains are still a puzzle. They were a relatively long instrument and natives used to sacrifice young female virgins. If they couldn't find one they just found anybody who had never played "The Carnival of Venice".

Anyway, the scene was thus:

Thousands of natives dancing around a cauldron of valve oil...bubbling hot from flames fanned by issues of the ITG journal. The natives would chant "Beee-flaht, beee-flaht". The instrument and the young girl were hurled into the cauldron by the chief while a chosen young native boy would mutter to those around him:

"I coulda done that better".

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Manny Laureano
_________________
Liviu Librescu-1930-2007- Holocaust survivor and hero during VA Tech massacre

wiseone2 · Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:42 pm Post subject:

THAT DOES IT...................... Manny, stay away from that Betts kid :-}
Wilmer

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[ This Message was edited by: wiseone2 on 2004-07-03 19:43 ]

hazmat · Heavyweight Member Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 669

Anti-C movement? followed by a march on Washington of course. lol

trmpet1 · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:31 pm Post subject:

Well that's really obvious after looking at it. I have been really trying to stick to playing my C trumpet a lot just to really start playing it well and I didn't think one second about playing it on Bb. Thanks for being nice!

Much Respect,

Tim

MannyLaureano · Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 6:13 am Post subject:

Dear Trumpet,

Thanks for taking my ribbing graciously...

May I make another suggestion? I assume you are fairly well versed with the Arban method. Go to some of the basic, sequential studies and transpose those along with your studies in the Sachse book. Many people ignore these because they "know" them. Well, that's the point. As the eye trains itself, the ear helps associate a new transposition like "A" or "F" to become more familiar. That's how I learned the basic transpositions on the Bb. I still begin everyday on the Bb and, truth be told, play it much more on a daily basis than the C trumpet. I wish the Bb were still a familiar sight in American orchestras as much as the C. I think the English have it right, quite frankly.

Actually, you really want to know what I think? I think we're afraid to pay the Bb anymore in orchestras here because we don't to - God forbid- miss notes! I think the key to not missing notes is practicing and singing while you play. There, I said it...let the flames begin.

Meanwhile, young friend, get busy.

Cheers,
Manny Laureano
_________________
Liviu Librescu-1930-2007- Holocaust survivor and hero during VA Tech massacre

Jerry · Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:25 am Post subject:

About fifteen years ago I was at a Brass Conference in NYC, and there was a session where Vacchiano was taking questions from the audience. Someone asked him what he attributed to his long tenure and success as principal trumpet in the NY Phil.

He claimed that it was his choice of instrument to use based on where the difficult passages lay the best. He would choose a Bb or a C or a D or an Eb or etc based on which gave him the most security playing the difficult passages.

My first trumpet teacher was a student of Vacchiano, and he said that Vacchiano emphasized in his training the importance of being able to transpose from any key into any other key so that he would never be limited by what key trumpet he was playing.

If Vacchiano did in deed train so many of those playing in American orchestras today, how did we evolve to playing the C trumpet as the trumpet of choice?

trombapaul2 · Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:53 am Post subject:

Manny,

No flames!! You're absolutely right. Why transpose a tri-tone (E trumpet on a Bb)
when it's so much easier and less scary to transpose a Major 3rd. However, I've
noticed, for me anyway, that much of the material written for trumpet in E simply
sounds better on a Bb. I'm sorry but the opening to "Capriccio Italien" just sounds
wrong on C trumpets. It begs for a much fuller sound. Anyway, I have to force
myself to use the Bb on orchestral material and it's quite enjoyable everytime.
Extra work, but enjoyable.

Paul
_________________
"NEVER practice...ALWAYS perform" (Bud)

"NEVER look at the trombones...it only encourages them" (R. Strauss)

"What the hell does sound have to do with music?" (Charles Ives)

_Clarino · Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:54 am Post subject:

Manny, why not lead by example? You are the principal of a very respected orchestra are you not? Boss your section about a bit!

Jerry, I think the use of the C trumpet in American orchestras was pioneered by Bud Herseth. I read somewhere that someone (I can't remember who) that he studied under before being appointed at the CSO used a C trumpet all the time, and Bud thought it was a great idea. Being such a great musician other trumpeters wanted to emulate Bud's style/use of equipment.

As for security, I think that in top level orchestras the trumpeters should use the instrument which provides the most appropriate sound for the piece. At that level I expect the top pros would be secure, no matter which instrument they use.

trumpetherald · Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:15 am Post subject:

trumpetchops · Heavyweight Member Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644

I have been taking lessons with a principal player in a major orchestra.

He plays everything on C trumpet.

I asked, "what if he had to play something that went out of his range" (too low).
He replied : "I would ask someone to play the note for me, or I would ask to borrow a trumpet"
I said: "What if you got a job playing in a brass quintet and all the parts were in B flat?"
He replied: " I would play C trumpet".

I have since been working towards playing all C trumpet.

MannyLaureano · Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:35 am Post subject:

Actually, you're right, guys...maybe it is time to lead by example and just play the bloody things more often!

Will do.

As far as the C trumpet. Vacchiano was playing it earlier than Bud. Remember, Vacchiano predates Bud by several years. By the time Bud broke into CSO in 1948, Vacchiano had already been with the Philharmonic for over a decade. However, both men were profoundly influenced by Georges Mager of the Boston Symphony. It was Mager who was the first principal player in a PROMINENT American orchestra to play a C trumpet. The BSO was an orchestra with a strong French influence and the players were, to a significant degree, French.

Since Bud went to New England Conservatory, he was influenced by the use of the C trumpet since the C became the instrument of choice for the principal trumpeters that followed Mager (Renee and Roger Voisin). Vacchiano saw it as a convenient way to deal with the pressures of the job. Imagine the constant recording that was done by the great orchestras in those days!

Later in Vacchiano's life he found more use for the trumpet in D. What is interesting to me is how he had the capacity to make D sound so large. Listen to Mahler 7th with Lenny...it's a favorite of mine. It sure doesn't sound like some puny instrument in his hands.

That's my problem, with what I hear. It's not so much that people want to play smaller instruments...it's that they allow the horns to sound small. Every instrument we play should should have the characterisics of a Stradivarius violin: rich and full-blooded.

When Maurice Andre plays the piccolo, to my ears it doesn't sound small relative to what I hear so often. We truly have to bring full sound concepts to the table, I think, irrespective of what we have in our hands. Where does that sound come from? The instrument of the trumpeter's cradle, the Bb, IMNTBHO.

All right...time for us grab our Bbs and practice, myself included. Let's get busy...

Cheers,
Manny Laureano
_________________
Liviu Librescu-1930-2007- Holocaust survivor and hero during VA Tech massacre

_Clarino · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:25 pm Post subject:

Jerry · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:39 pm Post subject:

"Later in Vacchiano's life he found more use for the trumpet in D. What is interesting to me is how he had the capacity to make D sound so large. Listen to Mahler 7th with Lenny...it's a favorite of mine. It sure doesn't sound like some puny instrument in his hands."

Manny, I believe that Bach makes D and Eb trumpets with a 239 bell in both .459 and .462 inch bores. That certainly is no puny instrument.

I've also read in this forum that players have had Bach 239 bells fitted to their Schilke E3L in order to get a big sound.

trumpetchops · Heavyweight Member Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644

[/quote]
I'm hesitant to be critical of a major player without knowing who he is, but who is this moron and why does he have such a stick up his arse about Bb trumpets? I mean, he couldn't possibly be unable to play on could he? Also, what does he do if the style of the piece demands that he use an Eb ar a D trumpet? [/quote]

That is a very good question.

He doesn't mind going to d or e flat or picc.
For some reason he doesn't play b flat.

He is so talented and has so much to teach, why do I care if he plays b flat or c. At first I thought it odd that he doesn't play b flat, but maybe there is something to it.

I am going to try to play c trumpet for a while and see if it makes a difference, if not I will go back to b flat.

MannyLaureano · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:19 pm Post subject:

Jerry,

Remember that that record was made in the mid sixties and I'm willing to wager that horn was made in the 1950s.

Also, I held that horn in my hands after it was purchased by Phyllis Cannata (now Phyllis Stork!) when Vacchiano was liquidating much of his collection that he used in the Philharmonic. Even I bought a couple of his instruments (the Besson Eb he used to record the Rite of Spring and Scythian Suite and the little F which he used to record the Brandenburg with Fritz Reiner). These are instruments I treasure and would never sell for sentimental reasons.

The D was the short bell type similar to my old bach D with the 236 bell. Perhaps puny was the wrong word but I resorted to hyperbole just to make the point that he played so many concerts on the D but his concept of sound remained the same: rich and sonorous like a Bb.

Cheers,
Manny

_________________
"I love this job!"-Mel Broiles (may he rest in peace)

[ This Message was edited by: MannyLaureano on 2004-07-07 08:56 ]

Mzony · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:31 pm Post subject:

OK,
I will admit it. I am a little uncomfortable playing the Bb trumpet in public. If I am totally honest about my practicing though, I tend to practice on it more than any other trumpet combined. I do my warm up, fundamental practice, etudes, almost everything on it in practice. I find it a more aqward instrument to use and that is why I practice so much on the thing. When I switch over to C, it feels much easier to me.
OK, so I am ready to get slammed, but I am not ashamed to admit that I feel gunshy about using the Bb in performances.

Mike

_Clarino · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:59 pm Post subject:

Trumpetchops, if I were you, I would put in a lot of work on both Bb and C trumpet. I don't want to gainsay anything your teacher has taught you (as I am nowhere near a top orchestral player myself) but I think both instruments have a lot to offer to orchestral playing.

I don't know what level you are currently at (Junior High, High school, college, University Etc.) but I suggest you learn the "Generic Codes" of as much music as you can. This will enable you to select the ideal trumpet for whatever you play in the future.

Mike, I find it hard to contemplate that someone as successful as you could be shy about playing a Bb! I'm not going to slam you at all, but might I suggest that your extra practice on Bb might make for a better performance? You obviously do a lot of work on the instrument, you may be better using it than you realise. Also, I can't remember who said it (it may have been in Howard Snell's book) "A 100% secure performance is dull and uninteresting." It's worth being a little unsure of how a performance will go, it adds to the excitement!

Mzony · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:10 pm Post subject:

Clarino,
I think you are totally 100% correct. I practice the Bb more because I realize it has so much value. BTW, I see practing on the Bb much like a major league slugger may loosen up with a heavier batt, it makes playing the C that much easier.
I have used Bb trumpets for various things in the orchestra, but I admit I have been exremely shy (an understatement) about playing the Bb trumpet outside of the practice room. This is a truth that has not gone unnoticed by me or my colleagues and is good for a joke a week by them. (Even when we do kiddy concerts and we are asked to play Bugler's Holiday I have opted to play C trumpet).
I have started playing a new Bb instrument (I am not giving an endorsement) in the last several months and will be playing it on a quarter of a recital that I will be doing in various places this summer...SO I am anxious to see how I will feel about performing a Bb after several recitals have been conquered. It may change my whole perspective.
I just want to close by echoing something I said earlier: I practice on the Bb a lot. I do almost everything in the practice room on the Bb including solos, etudes, transposition studies, excerpts, and my orchestral obligations. I feel it helps my playing quite a bit for various reasons which I can talk about later if anybody is interested. I went for a very short period of time where I left my Bb in its case and I did feel that my playing suffered by doing so. Those problems went away almost as soon as I started practicing the Bb regularly again.

Mike

trumpetchops · Heavyweight Member Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644