Major Orchestral Trumpet News

bimmerfreak · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:03 pm Post subject:

John,

Thanks so much for your posting and please accept my apologies for not mentioning you in my reference to the LA audition; my bad completely. And yes, I do believe that our time will come soon. I'm just reaching out to see how people feel about getting shut out of opportunities because of constant appointments being made.

While I really would love to share your optimism about all of these appointed people having to win an audition to keep their positions, I stand by my statement that:

"If someone is appointed to a position in a union orchestra without going through the standard audition process which is designed and governed by the union; that person has been given an unfair advantage, period. If that person ends up playing really well and developing a great rapport with the members of that orchestra... that person will be UNBEATABLE at the eventual national audition (if it ever even ends up being held). "

Don't get me wrong, I, like you, believe that the competition is 'beatable' and I always come to these auditions ready to play. But honestly, how are we supposed to prove in three or four or even five ten minute rounds what Mr. Williams has had a year to prove?? Or what Mr. Biancalana has had four years to prove??? I believe that the level at which we would have to play at the audition (which couldn't be further from a real performance situation) would have to be God-like to even be invited to play a week trial with the orchestra.

I understand that I could be completely wrong about this, but the outcomes of the permanent auditions for these positions will certainly tell the story. In the meantime, I'm just trying to look out for us! I'm sure alot of people think that I'm a little nuts.... they're right. Just ask Jeff Work!

Thanks again for writing and look forward to seeing you soon!

Jon

trpt.hick · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:44 pm Post subject:

The subject of "advantage" has come up time and time again in the Summit Brass institute's career seminars. When a panel of brass from such orchestras as Chicago, NY, LA, St. Louis, SF, Houston, etc. were asked if the temporary person had an unfair advantage, nearly all said "NO."

The reason is because everyone (including the conductor) has lots of opportunities to hear something they DON'T like. Often, they seem to look for those problems during the later auditions. Any yes, sometimes minds are even made up before the audition.....both for or against a temporary player.

I, like just about everyone, hate the way orchestras look for players. A cattle call full or 10 minute auditions doesn't really show real truth most of the time. But, no one seems to have figured out a better system. There are always inside politics for jobs of any type.

I know Jon's reputation, and I certainly know John's (Bluebrew) playing (he is a former student). At least feel good that Dave Hickman is CERTAIN that both of you will be in very big positions.....and soon!

Dave Hickman

Tpt_Guy · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:12 pm Post subject:

My question of is why Mark Inouye didn't get tenure.

How come he could get tenure as a 2nd player, but not as an Assoc. Principle player?
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bimmerfreak · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:53 pm Post subject:

Dave,

Thank you so much for your input!!!! When I made that post this morning, I had no idea that I would get so much feedback from so many great people so quickly!!! And thank you for your confidence in John and I. Sometimes, just knowing that someone as accomplished as you believes in us can be enough to give us that winning edge... Great stuff!!

Cheers!
Jon Dante

Trumpet4Hire · Veteran Member Joined: 05 Aug 2004 Posts: 135

I agree with Mr. Hickman in that people with 1-year appointments can have a big disadvantage in that the music director and members of the orchestra are now much more aware of the candidate’s weaknesses. There is also MUCH more pressure on the candidate, since they have gotten a taste of life in a big orchestra, but know they still have to play another audition. Whether that next audition starts in the semis, or finals for them, they will still have to “deliver the goods.”

There are several recent auditions where the one-year, even 2-year contracted player didn’t end up winning the job. (Indianapolis, Charlotte, St. Louis, etc……)

A friend of mine once got to drive Max Roach around, when he was the guest artists at their music school. The advice he gave to my friend was: “There is always room at the top.”

Keep practicing, because I will be…….

T4H

David Krauss · Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:35 am Post subject:

On one year positions and hiring peope:

First of all, anyone who takes a one year position has to realize that there is a good possibility that he/she will not get the full time position. It sucks and often not justified, however the ensemble has the right to be discriminating when it comes to hiring its musicians. It is best to plan for the worst case scenario and hope for the best when taking a one year position.
It is true that at the MET, we do have ALL audition rounds behind a screen and we almost always hire someone out of the finals. This is because our schedule is so demanding and we need a full roster to get through 7 performances a week. HOWEVER..we to value the tenure process and if someone wins the audition but does not fit in musically or profesionaly he/she will not get tenure and we will start over again.

David

[ This Message was edited by: David Krauss on 2004-08-17 10:39 ]

David Krauss · Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:50 am Post subject:

Also - Mark Inouye is a great player and deserves a principal job - so I'm happy he got the Houston gig. It seems like yesterday when we were in school together shooting spitballs through our leadpipes at conducting students during rehearsals.

robert_white · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1583

Jon and everybody,

This is big news, and is indeed disconcerting. I believe, though, that we shouldn't worry that a "trend" is forming as stories about these sort of practices have always been around. They probably always will be. The problem really resides in the fact that - at the highest levels- determining who plays "best" is so subjective. How do you quantify that "this" beautiful thing is more beautiful than "that" one? I certainly have no idea as most of the time I'm lucky if I play all the right notes, but I'm thankful for the chance to play in an orchestra for a living.

Jon, you are insightful to mention how much you appreciate your current position. While ambition engenders in all of us the craving for our lives to be different from how they are, taking fulfillment from what is already there allieviates this craving. Whether or not the Charlotte Symphony turns out to be the extent of my own good luck audition-wise, I aspire to take as much satisfaction as I can from it.

Bob

[ This Message was edited by: robert_white on 2004-08-27 08:41 ]

Brewblue1 · Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:10 am Post subject:

Jon,

no offense was taken at all, my friend. Im just sorry we had to meet up with a buzz-saw that day in Mr. Clean!

I understand how you can feel the way you do about the whole one-year thing and the supposed advantages. They may indeed exist. But as someone who just finished playing a one-year job with the Phoenix Symphony I have a slightly different perspective.

I replaced Emery Harvison who slid up to the Principal spot for a year while Chuck Berginc took a year of sabbatical. There was slight speculation for a short time that Chuck might retire (which has hasn't, and it sounds like he's really excited to come back).

Just to cover my behind I asked what might happen if Chuck did retire. I was told that they would make a decision first as to what to do with the Principal spot and Emery. Since he had won the one-year Principal audition, yes, he could have been given the job. I wouldn't have had a problem with that as the job was advertised as 'possible permant'. Assuming that Emery was given the permanent position, that would have then opened up the second job to audition. The new Phoenix Symphony policy was that one-year players could be placed automatically in the semis. I would have gotten to skip a round, but that is all. There was no guarantee that I would have won that job. I do feel that I might have had only a SLIGHT advantage in that I know how the section played and what they might want to hear from a candidate but I dont think it is a marked advantage.

Yes, that scenario is hypothetical. Here is one that is real. Phoenix also had several spots open in the violin section that were being filled with one-year appointments. Not a single one-year player won a permanent spot. They also had the same slight advantage that I mentioned, but they still didn't perform well enough to win.

My point.....I think the whole advantage thing can be overstated just a bit. I choose not to worry about such things because I feel it would just wear me down. And this adventure called auditioning is already too darn tough as it is. There is one thing that I can control, and that is how prepared I am for an audition and just go and try to play my best. Whoever else is there, whether or not they have played for the band, is really of no concern to me.

What is happening in SF could be construed as fishy. I will grant you that. But then again, maybe there are legitimate reasons for not filling or holding auditions that we just don't know about yet. I guess Im not so quick to cry foul until I know all the facts. Your post is the first I heard about any of this, and is still the only info Ive gotten.

Most orchestras do follow the rules and hold fair, impartial auditions. And SF may still do this when they have the time. As we approach the teeth of the performing schedules for these bands, it doenst surprise me that top-notch players have been appointed. They need someone to play! And the gentlemen in question have all proved that they can do the job.

If there is more to the story than what I know, then maybe my opinion will change. But for now, Ive got too much to do to get ready for the auditions that I am taking to worry about the ones Im not.

Basta!

John
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University of New Mexico
New Mexico Philharmonic
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Summit Brass

trpt.hick · Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:41 pm Post subject:

Jon & John:

I very much agree with David Krauss. Life moves on.

If you guys are making finals for top level orchestra jobs (top 10 orchestras, let's say), you must be doing alot of things right. It is just a matter of time before your playing and the needs of the orchestra coincide.

Referring back to those panel discussion seminars we have had during the various Summit Brass institutes, it always surprised me how many times some of the superstars of today had to audition to land a really big job.......sometimes 15-20 times!

Dave Hickman

bimmerfreak · Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:26 pm Post subject:

Mr. Hickman and Mr. Krauss,

Thank you both for your insight on this topic. I am really glad that I made that posting yesterday because I think that it has spawned a very valueable and constructive discussion amongst alot of relevantly prominent people in the business. That was the goal and I have already learned alot.

St. Louis was Josh MacCluer's 78th audition, and the upcoming Houston audition will be my 27th; so I'm very much aware that it could take a while to get where I want to go and that's okay. I am pretty new in the orchestra business (5 years) and feel very fortunate to have won a principal job on my second (and again on my 10th) audition with the New Mexico Symphony. No matter what audition I go to and don't end up winning, my worst case scenario is pretty damn good!!

Cheers
JD

308WIN · Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:49 pm Post subject:

Die FlederKRAUSS, "Kwauss",

Good to see you here man!

"Catch me like I've never been caught before!"

R

David Krauss · Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:53 pm Post subject:

Hey Rich -
I've got WAY too many "out" refrences from school to mention here. Hope all is well with you. Come up to NYC somtime so we can hang, shoot guns and eat "twice as many" snickerdoodles. PS - I'm still practicing the piano part to the Fasch CTO.

Later

[ This Message was edited by: David Krauss on 2004-08-17 19:55 ]

bj · Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:54 am Post subject:

6pk · Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:24 am Post subject:

This is a fascinating discussion. I agree that often a player that cover s a one year position is in a very difficult situation. I recently was covering a one year position,Hong Kong Phil) reauditioned, and fortunately did win the job, but there was a new conductor coming in and he barely heard me play in the orch, the player's were happy with me but they had no say, so it was all down to the audition and I was made to wait till the last two days of the season to find out whether I had it or not. (This wouldn't have been too much of a problem had it not been on the other side of the world from my homeland an my visa ran out in a week.) Typically my "reaudition" was not as good as my first to get theone year job, as I was far more nervous and felt much pressure from expectation to get it. But luckily it went my way, in this business I think everyone needs a tiny bit of luck.
Cheers everyone...hope that makes good reading.
Jon

maccluer · Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:49 pm Post subject:

I agree that having a one-year position makes it in many ways harder to win the permanent gig. I was only in that position once, as 2nd in the Kennedy Center, and did not win the second audition. It really hurt.

In St. Louis, I can say that the audition process seems to be very fair. They seem to usually (75% of the time) hire someone, and you have to win the audition to win the gig. That said, there is, if not a majority, a significant minority of orchestras who don't seem to run that way. San Francisco seems to be a notable example, for many different auditions for various instruments. They hardly ever hire anyone, and tenure them even less frequently. I think however that that may have to do a lot with their Master Agreement being very different on the subject of auditions. There are fiddle players there that have been playing careers of recurring one-years. Many violinists I know won't even bother to attend a San Francisco audition anymore.

By the way, St. Louis was only my 72nd audition.

Josh

trombapaul2 · Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:43 pm Post subject:

Josh,

72nd!!!!!

Well...I feel alot better.

Paul

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[ This Message was edited by: trombapaul2 on 2004-08-27 00:44 ]

WAKeele · Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:49 am Post subject:

WOW! That's my reaction. Only in music would you have people go through so much and then turn around and have to do it again. Just the thought of someone paying me to play the trumpet in an orchestra is unreal. I feel it should be the other way around for me. I'd pay to play with these guys! But I guess that's why I'm paying to big bucks now as a student again.

I haven't been following those auditions as closely. The mess with the CSO is what I'm trying to figure out (and I'm not just talking about the pay issue). It's one of those things where how do you replace a legend. YOU CAN'T! And that's what has become of the principal chair in Chicago. It's not just a regular principal chair in a major orchestra, it's Bud's chair for crying-out-loud! You don't want to break up that sound Chicago famous for. Because you could very well do that with a great player. They just have to find that "right" one.

I'd say they've already got the man to do it already...Mark Ridenour! But you know, I'd also say there's a couple more folks out there could do it the same justice I have heard. I love how the man plays. He's the first person, I'VE HEARD, which comes closest to the feeling when I hear Bud play.

Bottom line, I say that's why you just need to be you, do what makes you happy, and practice. Say the hell with those that turn you down. Your style of playing is you and they can't take that away. We can't forget this is an art form. I love this with a passion. It flows through me. I live this stuff! You means there's a job out there where someone pays you to play the trumpet in an orchestra filled with great musicians...sign me up!!!

But that's coming from a young guy just starting out in this. I just hope I still feel the same way down the road after experiences like the aforementioned.
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caritas · Regular Member Joined: 23 Jun 2003 Posts: 58

Well, much wisdom has been written here already, but I want to add one more perspective. First, let me say that I won two different auditions which I played earlier in my career. However, since I began working as a conductor, I notice that my perspective has changed: those who play well in auditions don't always fit the job, for whatever reason. So, my view is that auditions, as they're usually structured nowadays, cannot be fair, since they do not test for what an orchestra (or music director, or section) wants. The best way, I think, to hire the "right" person to fill a chair is to have them play in that chair for awhile, then evaluate or compare. I'm pretty sure the union can't fix this by setting our standard audition policy in concrete. That said, I don't think it's right to invite people to an audition when someone knows in advance that no one will get the job.