Did Mendez tripple tongue?

[Blancolate]

My teacher, a highly respected classical trumpet in NY, believes that Mendez never triple tongued. He believes Mendez would always use his double tongue to get the job done. Did Mendez ever address this articulation question?

[trpt.hick]

Mendez may have used the double pattern in triple tonguing some of the time, but his clinic tapes indicate that he advocated TTK.

[trumpetmike]

Dave
The idea of double tongue in a triple pattern (or however one is supposed to refer to it) was a completely alien concept to me before hearing you speak at ITG Texas. I had never even heard it suggested as a possibility. It has been a source of frustration ever since!
Just when I thought I knew what I was doing, you had to suggest something different.
I still use a more conventional pattern for my triple tongue, but the exercise of doubling a triple passage has improved my control a huge amount. Many thanks for the idea.

I have got one of my more advanced students working on this and he is becoming rather adept at it. Sickening really. I think this could be that he had never been taught how to single tongue (he started everything from the lungs), so he started learning single and double tongueing at the same time. Shame he plays euphonium

[trpt.hick]

I use TTK most of the time, but on long hauls (extended passages of triplets) at very fast speeds I use TKT KTK (giving slight accents on the first note of each triplet.) It is much faster.

I think the Irons book was the first to formalize this technique, but I am not sure.

Many of my students that could already triple tongue TTK pretty well when they arrived have had difficulty learning the Irons way. Some have stuck with it, practicing this maybe 10 minutes each day, and have been very successful within 6 months or so in using both methods.

The best way is to teach students "multiple" tonguing is when they are kids. They can develop TK TK TK (groups of 6 note patterns) and TKT KTK at the same time. Later, they should develop TTK for fanfare tonguing.

Dave Hickman

[Martin]

[allstarbugler]

I have often wondered about the influence Mendez had on James Burke and vice versa.

It should be known (for those who do not) that James Burke wrote a book titled "New Directions in Tonguing" which demonstrated the art of using the double tongue approach to triple tonguing. Da-ga-da Da-ga-da instead of Tu-Tu-Ku Tu-tu-ku. It should also be noted that no one (in my experience and opinion) could triple tongue as fast as Mr. Burke. See Danza Allegre.

http://www.jfbcornet.com/mp3s.htm

[trpt.hick]

Burke certainly was incredible.

The Mendez Library contains nothing linking Mendez and Burke. They surely must have met and known of each other, but I don't know of any strong influences of one on the other.

[EBjazz]

Don't forget TKT. I think St. Jacome is the cat behind this. It's really the same as TTK. It just starts with TK.
TKt tkT TKt tkT TKt tkT etc.

Hey! I just came up with a new model. The KTT. It's really the same thing. Try this on some triplets. KTT KTT KTT. Of course in real life, you probably would not want to start with a K tongue. That's why it's just a model.

Eb
_________________
Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
www.bolvinmusic.com

[AccentOnTrumpet]

I don't believe Mendez had to triple-tongue very often. I know he never really single tongued, because that was a problem for him. When you can double tongue that well, it's not as important to be able to triple tongue, I don't think. I always just thought of triple tonguing as a double tongue plus another single attack.

[trpt.hick]

Mendez did triple tongue very well! Check out recordings of "Mexican Hat Dance" and "Jota No. 1." WOW!

He was often asked why he did not triple tongue so much. He replied that he felt that triple tonguing was too much associated with the older, then dated, cornet solos. He wanted to get away from that tradition.

DH

[oj]

The music in the book, The Rafael Méndez Collection (by Carl Fischer) has very little trippel notes. I looked through the whole book, just searching for "trippel tongue places". As you can see from the contents (here is a content list btw, http://abel.hive.no/trumpet/mendez/collection/ ) there are no typical old cornet solos.

Ole

[AccentOnTrumpet]

Yeah, I have that book. I was actually a bit disappointed with it because it didn't have "Samba Gitana", "Tico Tico", "La Virgen De La Macarena" and other essentials.

[razeontherock]

My sister (a flute player) never learned to triple tongue, but always used
ta-ka, saying it was easier. Trying to get the accent right eludes me. Just curious here; Arban specifically says not to move on to multiple tongue too soon, especially stacatto. I like the approach of starting early better; why this conflict?

[trpt.hick]

I guess because if your single tongue is not clean and fast, multiple tonguing will not be good. One of the main things to work on when first learning multiple tonguing is to work towards making the "K" sylable sound as good as the "T" sylable. At least, that's my take on it.

[trumpetchops]

When I was in college I studied with Jimmy Burke. We worked a lot on tonguing and he never mentioned TKT.

He was retired from playing when I studied with him but his tonguing was the fastest that I have ever heard.

I am going to practice TKT for a couple of weeks and I will let you know how it goes.