Can Trumpet fingerings be refered to like trombones?

lcs150 · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 3:30 pm Post subject:

An old band director of mine used to refer to fingers as positions from time to time, like a trombone. The shortest pipe (open) was first position and so on...
0 - 1st position
2 - 2nd position
1 - 3rd position
12 - 4th position
23 - 5th position
13 - 6th position
123 - 7th position

These correspond exactly to the trombone. And the reason we have to use the slide so much on 23 fingerings is the same as why my trombonist friends refer to 5th positon as "nebulous": that harmonic series is just a bit off.

So, I see no reason why using names like "1st position" would be inaccurate. I do all the time, especially while talking to low brass players.
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pair of kings · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:58 pm Post subject:

it is correct but I don't think most trumpetplayers are going to talk in trombone terms.

lcs150 · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2003 4:41 pm Post subject:

But you have to admit it's faster.
"What's the fingering?"
"5th."

Well I was hoping someone would disagree and say I was totally wrong... Sorry, I guess that wasn't a very good debate.
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_trumpetgod_02 · Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 10:32 am Post subject:

Not a good debate, but a good point.
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lcs150 · Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2003 1:18 pm Post subject:

Haha, thanks Nick.
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James B. Quick · Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 6:24 am Post subject:

Interesting thing about the trombone: Even though its called a 'C' instrument , it is twice the length of a Bb trumpet, the open (1st) tone sounds an octave below the trumpet open tone.
So, a 'c' concert on a trombone is 6th position, but a 'c' on a Bb trumpet is open...but sound a seventh apart... The real art of trombone players is in the use of alternate positions, for example 4th can be used for all 2nd postion notes that are higher in the overtone series, third position can be substituted for 5th higher up, etc. Pulling the slide slightly fine tunes the alternate positions..

RhythmDoctor · Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:17 am Post subject:

James - I haven't heard trombone referred to as a C instrument. It's a Bb instrument that is notated in concert pitch. It seems like the conventions for bass clef instruments are to notate them that way. Just ask any tuba player - he'll tell you there are instruments in Bb, C, Eb, etc. But they're all notated in C, even though he may not be playing a C instrument. Trumpets should be the same way - the horn you pick often has NOTHING to do with the key in which the piece is notated, especially in orchestral music. You pick the horn that gets the appropriate sound, best intonation and articulation, and transponse as needed.

Although it's a stale message, I'l also respond to James Socol's original note. Yes, trombone slide positions are directly analogous to trumpet fingerings, except the trombone's slide positions are more in tune than valves. For instance, 7th position is more extended than 123 on a valve trombone, because it includes the extra extension that would require the valve slide(s) to be pushed out.

One thing I take great issue with is James S's contention about 23 fingerings. 23 tends to be FLAT relative to the other valve combinations, so the 3rd valve slide should NOT be used for that. The physics of sound requires that tubing lengths be adjusted along an exponential scale. This can be done easily on a trombone slide, but the discretized nature of trumpet valves requires that tubing lengths be adjusted additively (i.e., 1+2+3). This is only a rough approximation of the exponential scale, therefore requiring slide adjustments for 123, 13, and (sometimes) 12. Another side effect is that 3 and 23 are almost always flat, and need to be avoided or lipped up.

There is nothing "nebulous" about 5th position on trombone, except that it can be hard to reach out that far in very technical passages. As you move to higher harmonics, trombonists will tend to avoid 5th position, since the flexibility of the slide makes alternate positions much more viable than they would be on trumpet or valve trombone. The most common example is the trombone's Gb 3 ledger line above the staff. A valve trombone has to play this 23, but slide trombones will often do it with a short 3rd position. It's a shorter reach, and doesn't suffer the intonation problems of playing that note using first valve.

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[ This Message was edited by: RhythmDoctor on 2003-03-09 17:03 ]

James B. Quick · Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:45 pm Post subject:

"One thing I take great issue with is James' contention about 23 fingerings. " Just want to make sure everyone knows it was the other 'James' that said that!

When I play in our band with the French horn player, if I want to match his note or know where he is, I watch his fingering. The fingering matches but he has a whole'nother name for the note. I still haven't figured that one out...

James B. Quick · Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 12:50 pm Post subject:

Oh, and seventh position will not be more in tune than a trumpet's 123 if the trombonist has a short arm or tennis elbow.... HA!

Actually this is why the F-rotor was invented......

friendofpitcellobreaker · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 12:02 pm Post subject:

On the issue James (B. Quick) brought up, the french horn player in question is probably playing on the Bb horn. He still reads the music in F, and thinks it in F with a different set of fingerings. I hope that makes sense.

WAKeele · Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:30 pm Post subject:

Schlossberg referred to positions like this in his Daily Drills book. That might be where your band director friend got it.
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trumpetmike · Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:07 pm Post subject:

jhatpro · Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:38 pm Post subject:

You talk to low brass players?
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plankowner110 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620

"NEVER look at the trombones...it only encourages them" (R. Strauss)
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tpter1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 1194

Charles Colin also refers to "Positions" in his Advanced Lip Flexibilities book. That may be another place wherre your director got that.

I would stay away from trombone players...they'll get you into trouble!

trumpetgirl612 · Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:06 am Post subject:

I KNOW A FEW TRUMPET PLAYERS WHO WOULD BE INSULTED IF THEIR FINGERINGS WERE DESCRIBED IN SUCH A MANNER
OOPS! sorry i didnt relize caps lock was on!
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Trumpet Dude · Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:16 am Post subject:

HoltonScreamer · Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject:

I think the idea that us trumpeters would use trombone terms for our own fingerings is quite ridiculous. However I do have to admit it would definitely help out us music major, instead of memorizing positions we could just transpose the notes in our heads and position for that fingering. and Forget about baritone players ,they dont even have to transpose, but baritone players suck anyway compared to us so they dont matter.

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Chris4 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 1128

Your ideas would help alot for a trumpet player doubling on trombone such as myself. I think I may try that. Thanks,Chris.
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Chris4 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 1128

Your ideas would help alot for a trumpet player doubling on trombone such as myself. I think I may try that. Thanks,Chris.
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