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Downstream vs. Upstream & Playing High



 
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Don Lee
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 730
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2002 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So here is a question for all of you chops experts out there. If I understand it correctly, there are "downstream players" (players who tend to blow the air stream downwards) and "upstream players", those that tend to blow the air stream upwards. And I suppose there are those that blow the air stream straight ahead.

For years I played with the dreaded open embouchure and tended to blow the air downstream with my upper lip overlapping my lower. Obviously, not a good setup for range or endurance.

After much experimentation and with the aid of The Balanced Embouchure, SC and Clint McLaughlin's books, I now have a closed setting and am able to hit some pretty high notes (not with a lot of volume at this point) with relatively little effort. But to go very high I need to bring my lower jaw forward so I have even compression between both lips and make the air stream go slightly upwards. If the air stream goes downwards or the upper lip overlaps the lower at all I have no range.

Can you play high with the air stream going down? Or is the problem really with the upper lip overlapping the lower and not allowing for even (and strong) lip compression?

Are there any high note players out there that play downstream?


Don Lee
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Wtrager
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 86
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2002 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"After much experimentation and with the aid of The Balanced Embouchure, SC and Clint McLaughlin's books, I now have a closed setting and am able to hit some pretty high notes (not with a lot of volume at this point) with relatively little effort. But to go very high I need to bring my lower jaw forward so I have even compression between both lips and make the air stream go slightly upwards. If the air stream goes downwards or the upper lip overlaps the lower at all I have no range.

Can you play high with the air stream going down? Or is the problem really with the upper lip overlapping the lower and not allowing for even (and strong) lip compression?

Are there any high note players out there that play downstream?


Don Lee"

Ok, I'll answer your last question first. Yes, there are high note players out there that play downstream. I think what might be confusing to many players is the dynamics of the embouchure. For instance, the typical upstreamer blows the airsteam in an upward direction towards the rim of the mouthpiece, due to their mouthpiece placement and forward jaw position. As they ascend, the jaw usually moves SLIGHTLY inward, and the airstream is directed more toward the throat of the mouthpiece.
A downstreamer blows the air in a downward direction towards the rim of the mouthpiece, as they ascend they usually bring their jaw outward and the airstream is directed more towards the throat of the mouthpiece - exactly the opposite of the upstreamer.
Don,
It sounds to me like you're playing correctly! Don't be afraid to bring your jaw forward. Remember - use your sound as a guide.
Sincerely,
Wayne
http://communities.msn.com/TragerTrumpetTalk/_whatsnew.msnw
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Goldenchops55
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Joined: 24 Nov 2001
Posts: 216
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2002 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said that you played with the top lip overlapping the bottom lip, and it was a bad setup. I use that setup, and I feel that it is a closed embouchure. I changed to that from a rolled in embouchure, and extended my range by 4 notes, got a warmer tone, and better endurance. My top lip is just ever so slightly barely overlapping my bottom. Is this a bad setup? If so I would like to know, so that I could change it.
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Quadruple C
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Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 1448

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2002 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-01 15:39 ]
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Emb_Enh
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 455

PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2002 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are talking "pivot talk"...and ...so...

I can't tell you when or which pivot to employ, as there are many variables in pivoting which you will need to understand due to personal physiology.

THERE IS NO ONE HARD AND FAST RULE FOR ALL PLAYERS.

I can tell you that if you can play and only use your pivot when absolutely necessary then it's an incredibly useful tool to have. Some players use a pivot so subtly they hardly know they are using it themselves. It is practically impossible to see visually if done correctly with efficient chops.

Depending on your personal physical set up, the pivot helps to keep the lips and teeth aligned so that the flow of air remains lined up with the throat.

The least you need to use it the better. As with all systems let the sound you create on the horn be your guide, and don't over exaggerate a physical change.

The angle of the horn in either moving up or down slightly in pivoting is absolutely dependant on your physical make up and it is essential that you read Donald S. Reinhardt's Encyclopedia of the Pivot System. There is also some information online.

When you've successfully understood your own pivot type, take great steps to encorporate it SO well into your overall performance that you hardly notice it there at all when you cross the "range boundaries."

It may be the key to you unlocking more range / endurance provided you remember to ride that airstream and use your abs and air to defend the lip against mpc pressure.


Roddy o-iii<O
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[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]
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DSR
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Joined: 21 Mar 2002
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mother Nature (or God) made you either upstream or downstream...figure out which one you are. One will offer you success, the other will certainly result in failure. I play upstream...tone, endurance, and range and absolutely terrible if I play with a downstream placement.

Why?

I have a long jaw that protrudes almost beyond my upper teeth when I play. I have a short top lip and dominant bottom lip....so it just makes sense that my bottom lip will slightly overlap the top lip when I ascend.

As someone else suggested, it would be beneficial for you to read Donald S. Reinhardt's Encyclopedia of the Pivot System.

He doesn't talk about the opened/closed embouchure thing....he just helps you find the embouchure that works for you (whether it be upstream or downstream)
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DSR
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Joined: 21 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wtrager...I don't concur...regardless of whether the player is upstream or downstream the airstream strikes near the rim in the upper register and near the throat in the lower register. This is why a player encounters more resistance in the upper register...the airstream (while striking close to the rim) must make more spirals before it travels through the throat.

What makes the airstream travel in an upward or downward direction is the lip that is predominated into the mouthpiece while playing. Higher mouthpiece placements are downstreams, and lower mouthpiece placements are upstreams. If a player utilizes more top lip in the mouthpiece, then naturally the airstream will travel downward...and vice versa with upstream. Both downstream and upstream players protrude their jaws slightly while they ascend into the upper register. You may wonder why a downstream player's airstream won't shift from down to up if the player protrudes his jaw...because the mouthpiece cup is a "controlled environment" where as I said before either the top or bottom lip will predominate, and so the airstream will travel downward.

This is just my take on trumpet playing...but the logic and science behind is infallible.
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Wtrager
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 86
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DSR wrote:
" Both downstream and upstream players protrude their jaws slightly while they ascend into the upper register. You may wonder why a downstream player's airstream won't shift from down to up if the player protrudes his jaw...because the mouthpiece cup is a "controlled environment" where as I said before either the top or bottom lip will predominate, and so the airstream will travel downward.
This is just my take on trumpet playing...but the logic and science behind is infallible. "

There are several statements here which are fallible.
1- "Both downstream and upstream players protrude their jaws slightly while they ascend into the upper register" - Not true at all! Infact, there was a dissertation written on this topic in great detail. "A Photographic Study of the Body Positions of Sixteen Trumpet Virtuosi While Playing Selected Exercises" by Dr. Edward Lewis 1985 NYU (not to be confused with Eddie Lewis)Copies of this dissertation can be had through U-M-I Disertation Information Service out of Ann Arbor, Michigan. Dr. Lewis' study points out that just the OPPOSITE of what you say is true.
2-"You may wonder why a downstream player's airstream won't shift from down to up if the player protrudes his jaw.."
once again - not true.
In most cases the downstream player's airstream most definitely shifts upward toward the throat of the MPC as he/she ascends. In most cases the Upstream player's airstream definitely shifts downward toward the throat of the MPC as he/she ascends. This can seen using a Reinhardt clear Lucite MPC. Reinhardt's own pivot system was based on the redirecting of the airstream. Anyone who studied with him would tell you that. Please take into account that there is always going to be some exception to these principles somewhere. Let the sound dictate what is correct for you.
Sincerely,
Wayne
http://communities.msn.com/TragerTrumpetTalk/_whatsnew.msnw
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walter
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 08:33 ]
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