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Jens Lindemann's mouthpiece rant


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teb1034
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about you guys, but I read Mr. Lindemann's post a little differently. From what I read and interpreted, I don't think he is suggesting to us all to get new, smaller equipment. Obviously if your physique is built in a certain way, then certain equipment will most likely work better for you (ie, big lips = bigger mouthpiece GENERALLY). Also, I think that if you've been playing on a certain size mouthpiece for numerous years, it might be a real bad idea to change. I read the main point to be more along the lines of saying that YOU, personally, don't have to have the biggest mouthpiece in the trumpet section to be the best player. If you sound great on a 3C, there's no reason to switch to a bigger mouthpiece. If you sound great on a 1 1/2C, there may not be a reason to go to the 3C... assuming you can make it all the way through a concert!

Bottom line in my opinion? Whatever works best for you, works best for you. You shouldn't be frowned upon for playing on a pea-shooter or a tuba sized cup, as long as you sound great and you're happy with it.

On a semi-side-note, I can't remember where or whom I heard this, but it stuck with me after (in my younger days) accusing someone of using a "cheater" - it was something along the lines of wearing the right shoes for a marathon... you wouldn't wear flip-flops or a size too big - you might be able to go the first mile, but after that you're going to start hurting and won't finish the race. That thought certainly opened my mind quite a bit.

... but that's just my opinion. I'm not claiming it to be factual.

-TB
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GR Tech
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At times we read information posted via the Internet and we develop a perception that is not what the author intended. On the other hand, in a live venue such as a clinic or master class we have the opportunity to ask questions and seek clarifications. Therefore, I perceive some facts are needed to fully understand what Mr. Lindemann is talking about.

Mouthpiece size can be confusing and misunderstood. I worked with Mr. Lindemann on these current mouthpiece designs as well as digitizing his existing mouthpieces. There were changes made in the rim area and cup shape, although, the basic diameter is very close and so is the cup volume. The key word here is cup volume. The mouthpieces Mr. Lindemann uses for much of his work has a moderate diameter in the 5-7 range, although, the cup volume is much larger than a 1 1/4C, therefore, it's no pee shooter. What does this mean?

1. The slightly smaller diameter keeps his lips for engaging too far into the mouthpiece. Therefore, he makes more use of the existing cup volume and the sound will be just as big and fat or fatter than that of a larger diameter mouthpiece. Remember, cup volume-lip engagement=1st natural harmonic of the mouthpiece. The more volume remaining after the lips enter the mouthpiece, the more lower overtones in the sound. I have worked with other major orchestral players that were more extreme. One used a .615 diameter and the other a .605. Both players had a beautiful sound and used a small amount of lip engagement. I have worked with players using over a .700 diameter and they had great results as well. Why?

2. GR's 3 Rules of Brass Playing- Rule #1; The lips must be supple and free to vibrate without unnatural impingement or manipulation, cushion is required. Often players go to a larger diameter mouthpiece because they need have a lip impingement problem. This larger diameter will allow for a more vibrant sound but it may only be masking the problem. That is not to say that a larger diameter isn't better for some people.

3. GR's 3 Rules of Brass Playing- Rule #3; There must be a match between the player, horn, and mouthpiece. If one changes the others must be able to accommodate the change or be changed as well. The system needs to be a match! The same horn and mouthpiece used by Jens, Doc, or Bud, doesn't mean they will work for you, although, their concepts might work given a chance.

Mr. Lindemann says, " Now, if your thing happens to be the quest for the perfect mouthpiece, then at least be honest with yourself, it is the chase that you are into and not the solution."

To discover if equipment works for you a testing procedure is needed. Mr. Lindemann went through the GR playing tests to discover if things could be better. I'll let Mr. Lindemenn describe the experience when he is ready. If something passes the test, use it. If something fails the test, move on and don't look back. Remember, If one changes the others must be able to accommodate the change or be changed as well.
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_Happy Canuck
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GR Tech, I went through the testing procedure with Brian this summer and came out of it with a Butcher 65.6M and what a difference! My sound, attack and tone are much improved. I'd been using a Bach 1 1/2C and a Monette B4 and now I'm out of mouthpiece Hell! I'm also using the leadpipe exercises with great results too.

I'm not surprised that Jens found the right configuration working with you, and I understand he visited you just before his Trumpet Symposium at the University of Toronto.

Thanks for helping me "to make the music"!
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308WIN
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Jens? No more 5B? Just when I was thinking of switching to one . Seriously though, great post. Good to see you here.



Rich

(PS, eat any McD's cheeseburgers lately? )
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jcmacman
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jens,
Welcome to TH('')

I saw you at UCLA with Doc earlier this month. Great performance!! Loved your jacket!

First off, what was the mouthpiece you gave Doc?
Man, that takes nerve to change mouthpieces right before a concert!

How did you like the Destino? Did Doc let you keep it?

You have a cool looking Picc, what make and model is it. It sounded sweet. The UCLA student also playing Picc was Awsome. He had great articulation and intonation. I really enjoyed it.

It was a really enjoyable evening to hear Doc play again. The last time I heard him live, was when he was on The Tonight Show. I thought he toned down the jacket a little, but he did have cool socks on.

Thanks Jens and welcome,

John
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Jens Lindemann's mouthpiece rant Reply with quote

Excellent "rant"!!! I felt it should be brought back up to the top of the forum so those who might have missed it would have the opportunity to read it.

Sincerely,

John Mohan


trumpetjens wrote:
I noticed a recent mouthpiece thread and thought I would weigh in with my own philosophy based upon a letter I wrote in the middle of the night to TPIN a year ago. It has been very slightly modified to reflect my current equipment...I have only made one real change now in about 10 years...and that was subtle.

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23
:41:49 EDT
From: JLindem96@aol.com
Subject: [TPIN] Jens Lindemann mouthpiece

I have received many e-mails from TPIN members who were at the ITG conference asking the classic "what-mouthpiece-do-you-use" question. I thought I would take this opportunity to give you my personal theory on mouthpieces.

I believe that far too many trumpet players use mouthpieces that are basically too big. IMHO, going larger than a Bach 3C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 14c4 or smaller than a Bach 7C or Yamaha/Schilke 11 should be considered 'specialized' equipment.

We seem to have no shortage of trumpet players out there who would say that very small mouthpieces are considered 'cheaters'. Have you ever seen a Bill Chase mouthpiece? It is about as small as you can possibly get and it served him very well for the type of playing he did. Could he have done that on a larger mouthpiece? Of course, but specialized lead players are artists in their own right. Those who do it for a living are very cognizant of what they are hired to do in the most efficient manner possible so that they can continue to do it for as long possible!

True lead players are also extremely rare. Think about how many people in your own community would be considered monster lead players...specifically the so-called 'screech' players. You would probably come up with a relatively small number in any given city. I can also virtually guarantee you that those inviduals play on more 'specialized' equipment that probably falls out of a standard industry medium. In my opinion, you should only mess around with their type of equipment if you were interested in the type of air velocity that they themselves use for their specific job. Remember though that everything comes with a price. Extremely small, shallow mouthpieces simply do not resonate that well in a section. They may have good 'cutting' projection but try playing softly with a good attack...very risky. Of course, if you never have to play softly with a good sound then you should consider yourself a true specialist...go for it!

By the same token, the great orchestral players use equipment that would hover around a Bach 1 1/2 or 1C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 16-18C4. These individuals should also be considered 'specialists' because they are. Playing in an orchestra requires the ability to blend first and foremost and occasionally lead the entire brass section. But even then, the best players are simply riding on top of overtones being laid down by the rest of the section. They are not trying to 'cut' through in the way that commercial trumpet players might want to sizzle over a big band or rock group.

I just finished playing with the Summit Brass this week. Allen Vizzutti, Allan Dean and David Hickman were also in the trumpet section. Playing with them was AMAZINGLY easy because everyone blended and played in tune and everyone occasionally had the opportunity to lead the section and lay down a style that the others would follow. When the section is in tune and balanced, it is very simple to play for long periods of time without feeling true fatigue.

It is my understanding that the great Bud Herseth began his career on something like a Bach 7C and only switched to a larger mouthpiece (Bach 1X...made for him) after his car accident so that there was greater sensation in his nerve-damaged lips. Obviously, Bud Herseth is one of the greatest orchestral players ever but his own switch to a large mouthpiece (largest ever at the time) was based on an extreme situation for a highly specialized job. However, since most classical players wanted to sound like him, many made the same switch without thinking of the potential ramifications. Specifically, working too hard to find the sweet spot...more on that later. Bud Herseth is one the most efficient players of all time and he was efficient on a Bach 7C for a long period.

Thus, the point of my ramble (I think I'm jet-lagged). EFFICIENCY!!! After starting on a Bach 7C like many of you out there, I graduated to bigger equipment...all the way to a Bach 1 1/4, 24 throat, Schmidt backbore. I love stats...it clears the room of everyone except trumpet players. So, now that we are alone, I can tell you about my realization. Unless I wanted to be Bill Chase, there was little point in playing through a pin hole. By the same token, it also seemed reasonably logical that unless I was recovering from nerve damage and needed to feel more of my lips so that I could play for Fritz Reiner in Chicago, I probably wouldn't need a 1X either.

Allen Vizzutti and I have discussed this often over the years and the simple fact is this, in order to play efficently you must be in the sweet spot of a mouthpiece. A large mouthpiece has a bigger sweet spot and, as with oversized tennis racquets and golf clubs, it helps compensate for our very human ability to miss the centre of the note more often than not. To accomplish the same goal on a smaller mouthpiece you MUST be more efficient or it will back up on you. I describe backing up as basically trying to overpower the sweet spot.

Currently, I am playing a GR mouthpiece which Gary Radtke made especially for me. This will be available very soon (complete with my website on it...the benefits of customization!). For years before that, my own equipment was made for me by a mouthpiece maker in Japan who worked for Yamaha. I don't know the exact dimensions but they are somewhere between a Bach 5-7 C or a Yamaha/Schilke 11. Never measured the throat or the backbore and I didn't really care because it basically got me to where I needed to be. I could pretty much do everything I needed to do in any register I needed to play in with that mouthpiece. Could it have been a more perfect mouthpiece? Of course! Will I obsess about trying to find an elusive solution? Of course not! The answer is fluid anyway due to the fact that my body, lips, dental structure, and vital capacity will always be changing naturally due to the aging process that everyone of us is undergoing as I write this. Now, if your thing happens to be the quest for the perfect mouthpiece, then at least be honest with yourself, it is the chase that you are into and not the solution.

The bottom line is this (again, IMHO) the name of the game is efficiency and flexibility and the best solution for an all-around game is middle of the road equipment coupled with focused, intelligent practise. Have fun experimenting but don't let it be the answer to your problems!

Jens Lindemann
www.trumpetsolo.com
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7cw
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Jens Lindemann's mouthpiece rant Reply with quote

..

Last edited by 7cw on Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Syntax
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree completely with this rant.

Your sound is a matter of how the embouchure works and should not be dictated by the mouthpiece. There are people with huge sounds on small equipment and small sounds on huge equipment. The mantra that a bigger mouthpiece equates with a bigger sound is too simplistic, as the situation is much more complicated than that.

My response to those who contend that they play better on huge mouthpieces is that the larger mouthpiece may only mask problems, not fix them. Making medium-to-smaller mouthpieces work is a question of lip focus more than anything, not lip size or architecture. Most of the great players have achieved incredible lip focus, meaning that their embouchures can retain integrity to be able to play any mouthpiece (huge or pea shooter) and sound just as good.

It is very tempting to imitate your hero symphony or jazz player and run out and buy a 1C or 10.5C. While these pieces may give you the illusion of a bigger sound or higher range, chances are it is too big for you. If you're not careful, you may lose your lip focus and forever become a prisoner of the larger mouthpiece. If you're lucky, your range and endurance won't suffer, but chances are without the added support from the mouthpiece your lips will spread out and lose most of their focus.

Mr. Lindemann is right here, most people will perform best on medium size equipment. If you work on getting a bigger sound or higher range, you can do so without moving to a larger mouthpiece, and then your endurance and lip focus will not suffer.

Very nice rant, Mr. Lindemann!
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Tom Straight
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Jens Lindemann's mouthpiece rant Reply with quote

trumpetjens wrote:
Allen Vizzutti and I have discussed this often over the years and the simple fact is this, in order to play efficently you must be in the sweet spot of a mouthpiece. A large mouthpiece has a bigger sweet spot and, as with oversized tennis racquets and golf clubs, it helps compensate for our very human ability to miss the centre of the note more often than not. To accomplish the same goal on a smaller mouthpiece you MUST be more efficient or it will back up on you. I describe backing up as basically trying to overpower the sweet spot.

The embouchure is such a personal thing that I think it is impossible to come up with any hard a fast rules that can be applied from player to player. My 1st trumpet in my concert band was playing a YAM 14A4a and doing OK with it. I didn't like the way she was blending with the rest of the section however. About a year ago I gave her a Bach 1C just for her to goof around with, she loves it. Her range is about the same as with the 14a4a and her sound and endurance are much better. Go figure I work the best with a Bach 1X anything smaller feels cramped but anything bigger just doesn't support my chops properly. However, many of my trumpet players work best with the Bach 7C or YAM equi. that came with their horn. I've got several working with 3C's etc. What would happen if we started all our trumpet players on a 3C instead of a 7C?
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plankowner110
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Jens Lindemann's mouthpiece rant Reply with quote

What John Mohan said...+1

John Mohan wrote:
Excellent "rant"!!! I felt it should be brought back up to the top of the forum so those who might have missed it would have the opportunity to read it.

Sincerely,

John Mohan


trumpetjens wrote:
I noticed a recent mouthpiece thread and thought I would weigh in with my own philosophy based upon a letter I wrote in the middle of the night to TPIN a year ago. It has been very slightly modified to reflect my current equipment...I have only made one real change now in about 10 years...and that was subtle.

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23
:41:49 EDT
From: JLindem96@aol.com
Subject: [TPIN] Jens Lindemann mouthpiece

I have received many e-mails from TPIN members who were at the ITG conference asking the classic "what-mouthpiece-do-you-use" question. I thought I would take this opportunity to give you my personal theory on mouthpieces.

I believe that far too many trumpet players use mouthpieces that are basically too big. IMHO, going larger than a Bach 3C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 14c4 or smaller than a Bach 7C or Yamaha/Schilke 11 should be considered 'specialized' equipment.

We seem to have no shortage of trumpet players out there who would say that very small mouthpieces are considered 'cheaters'. Have you ever seen a Bill Chase mouthpiece? It is about as small as you can possibly get and it served him very well for the type of playing he did. Could he have done that on a larger mouthpiece? Of course, but specialized lead players are artists in their own right. Those who do it for a living are very cognizant of what they are hired to do in the most efficient manner possible so that they can continue to do it for as long possible!

True lead players are also extremely rare. Think about how many people in your own community would be considered monster lead players...specifically the so-called 'screech' players. You would probably come up with a relatively small number in any given city. I can also virtually guarantee you that those inviduals play on more 'specialized' equipment that probably falls out of a standard industry medium. In my opinion, you should only mess around with their type of equipment if you were interested in the type of air velocity that they themselves use for their specific job. Remember though that everything comes with a price. Extremely small, shallow mouthpieces simply do not resonate that well in a section. They may have good 'cutting' projection but try playing softly with a good attack...very risky. Of course, if you never have to play softly with a good sound then you should consider yourself a true specialist...go for it!

By the same token, the great orchestral players use equipment that would hover around a Bach 1 1/2 or 1C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 16-18C4. These individuals should also be considered 'specialists' because they are. Playing in an orchestra requires the ability to blend first and foremost and occasionally lead the entire brass section. But even then, the best players are simply riding on top of overtones being laid down by the rest of the section. They are not trying to 'cut' through in the way that commercial trumpet players might want to sizzle over a big band or rock group.

I just finished playing with the Summit Brass this week. Allen Vizzutti, Allan Dean and David Hickman were also in the trumpet section. Playing with them was AMAZINGLY easy because everyone blended and played in tune and everyone occasionally had the opportunity to lead the section and lay down a style that the others would follow. When the section is in tune and balanced, it is very simple to play for long periods of time without feeling true fatigue.

It is my understanding that the great Bud Herseth began his career on something like a Bach 7C and only switched to a larger mouthpiece (Bach 1X...made for him) after his car accident so that there was greater sensation in his nerve-damaged lips. Obviously, Bud Herseth is one of the greatest orchestral players ever but his own switch to a large mouthpiece (largest ever at the time) was based on an extreme situation for a highly specialized job. However, since most classical players wanted to sound like him, many made the same switch without thinking of the potential ramifications. Specifically, working too hard to find the sweet spot...more on that later. Bud Herseth is one the most efficient players of all time and he was efficient on a Bach 7C for a long period.

Thus, the point of my ramble (I think I'm jet-lagged). EFFICIENCY!!! After starting on a Bach 7C like many of you out there, I graduated to bigger equipment...all the way to a Bach 1 1/4, 24 throat, Schmidt backbore. I love stats...it clears the room of everyone except trumpet players. So, now that we are alone, I can tell you about my realization. Unless I wanted to be Bill Chase, there was little point in playing through a pin hole. By the same token, it also seemed reasonably logical that unless I was recovering from nerve damage and needed to feel more of my lips so that I could play for Fritz Reiner in Chicago, I probably wouldn't need a 1X either.

Allen Vizzutti and I have discussed this often over the years and the simple fact is this, in order to play efficently you must be in the sweet spot of a mouthpiece. A large mouthpiece has a bigger sweet spot and, as with oversized tennis racquets and golf clubs, it helps compensate for our very human ability to miss the centre of the note more often than not. To accomplish the same goal on a smaller mouthpiece you MUST be more efficient or it will back up on you. I describe backing up as basically trying to overpower the sweet spot.

Currently, I am playing a GR mouthpiece which Gary Radtke made especially for me. This will be available very soon (complete with my website on it...the benefits of customization!). For years before that, my own equipment was made for me by a mouthpiece maker in Japan who worked for Yamaha. I don't know the exact dimensions but they are somewhere between a Bach 5-7 C or a Yamaha/Schilke 11. Never measured the throat or the backbore and I didn't really care because it basically got me to where I needed to be. I could pretty much do everything I needed to do in any register I needed to play in with that mouthpiece. Could it have been a more perfect mouthpiece? Of course! Will I obsess about trying to find an elusive solution? Of course not! The answer is fluid anyway due to the fact that my body, lips, dental structure, and vital capacity will always be changing naturally due to the aging process that everyone of us is undergoing as I write this. Now, if your thing happens to be the quest for the perfect mouthpiece, then at least be honest with yourself, it is the chase that you are into and not the solution.

The bottom line is this (again, IMHO) the name of the game is efficiency and flexibility and the best solution for an all-around game is middle of the road equipment coupled with focused, intelligent practise. Have fun experimenting but don't let it be the answer to your problems!

Jens Lindemann
www.trumpetsolo.com

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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Jens Lindemann's mouthpiece rant Reply with quote

I think this is overdue for.... +2

plankowner110 wrote:
What John Mohan said...+1

John Mohan wrote:
Excellent "rant"!!! I felt it should be brought back up to the top of the forum so those who might have missed it would have the opportunity to read it.

Sincerely,

John Mohan


trumpetjens wrote:
I noticed a recent mouthpiece thread and thought I would weigh in with my own philosophy based upon a letter I wrote in the middle of the night to TPIN a year ago. It has been very slightly modified to reflect my current equipment...I have only made one real change now in about 10 years...and that was subtle.

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23
:41:49 EDT
From: JLindem96@aol.com
Subject: [TPIN] Jens Lindemann mouthpiece

I have received many e-mails from TPIN members who were at the ITG conference asking the classic "what-mouthpiece-do-you-use" question. I thought I would take this opportunity to give you my personal theory on mouthpieces.

I believe that far too many trumpet players use mouthpieces that are basically too big. IMHO, going larger than a Bach 3C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 14c4 or smaller than a Bach 7C or Yamaha/Schilke 11 should be considered 'specialized' equipment.

We seem to have no shortage of trumpet players out there who would say that very small mouthpieces are considered 'cheaters'. Have you ever seen a Bill Chase mouthpiece? It is about as small as you can possibly get and it served him very well for the type of playing he did. Could he have done that on a larger mouthpiece? Of course, but specialized lead players are artists in their own right. Those who do it for a living are very cognizant of what they are hired to do in the most efficient manner possible so that they can continue to do it for as long possible!

True lead players are also extremely rare. Think about how many people in your own community would be considered monster lead players...specifically the so-called 'screech' players. You would probably come up with a relatively small number in any given city. I can also virtually guarantee you that those inviduals play on more 'specialized' equipment that probably falls out of a standard industry medium. In my opinion, you should only mess around with their type of equipment if you were interested in the type of air velocity that they themselves use for their specific job. Remember though that everything comes with a price. Extremely small, shallow mouthpieces simply do not resonate that well in a section. They may have good 'cutting' projection but try playing softly with a good attack...very risky. Of course, if you never have to play softly with a good sound then you should consider yourself a true specialist...go for it!

By the same token, the great orchestral players use equipment that would hover around a Bach 1 1/2 or 1C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 16-18C4. These individuals should also be considered 'specialists' because they are. Playing in an orchestra requires the ability to blend first and foremost and occasionally lead the entire brass section. But even then, the best players are simply riding on top of overtones being laid down by the rest of the section. They are not trying to 'cut' through in the way that commercial trumpet players might want to sizzle over a big band or rock group.

I just finished playing with the Summit Brass this week. Allen Vizzutti, Allan Dean and David Hickman were also in the trumpet section. Playing with them was AMAZINGLY easy because everyone blended and played in tune and everyone occasionally had the opportunity to lead the section and lay down a style that the others would follow. When the section is in tune and balanced, it is very simple to play for long periods of time without feeling true fatigue.

It is my understanding that the great Bud Herseth began his career on something like a Bach 7C and only switched to a larger mouthpiece (Bach 1X...made for him) after his car accident so that there was greater sensation in his nerve-damaged lips. Obviously, Bud Herseth is one of the greatest orchestral players ever but his own switch to a large mouthpiece (largest ever at the time) was based on an extreme situation for a highly specialized job. However, since most classical players wanted to sound like him, many made the same switch without thinking of the potential ramifications. Specifically, working too hard to find the sweet spot...more on that later. Bud Herseth is one the most efficient players of all time and he was efficient on a Bach 7C for a long period.

Thus, the point of my ramble (I think I'm jet-lagged). EFFICIENCY!!! After starting on a Bach 7C like many of you out there, I graduated to bigger equipment...all the way to a Bach 1 1/4, 24 throat, Schmidt backbore. I love stats...it clears the room of everyone except trumpet players. So, now that we are alone, I can tell you about my realization. Unless I wanted to be Bill Chase, there was little point in playing through a pin hole. By the same token, it also seemed reasonably logical that unless I was recovering from nerve damage and needed to feel more of my lips so that I could play for Fritz Reiner in Chicago, I probably wouldn't need a 1X either.

Allen Vizzutti and I have discussed this often over the years and the simple fact is this, in order to play efficently you must be in the sweet spot of a mouthpiece. A large mouthpiece has a bigger sweet spot and, as with oversized tennis racquets and golf clubs, it helps compensate for our very human ability to miss the centre of the note more often than not. To accomplish the same goal on a smaller mouthpiece you MUST be more efficient or it will back up on you. I describe backing up as basically trying to overpower the sweet spot.

Currently, I am playing a GR mouthpiece which Gary Radtke made especially for me. This will be available very soon (complete with my website on it...the benefits of customization!). For years before that, my own equipment was made for me by a mouthpiece maker in Japan who worked for Yamaha. I don't know the exact dimensions but they are somewhere between a Bach 5-7 C or a Yamaha/Schilke 11. Never measured the throat or the backbore and I didn't really care because it basically got me to where I needed to be. I could pretty much do everything I needed to do in any register I needed to play in with that mouthpiece. Could it have been a more perfect mouthpiece? Of course! Will I obsess about trying to find an elusive solution? Of course not! The answer is fluid anyway due to the fact that my body, lips, dental structure, and vital capacity will always be changing naturally due to the aging process that everyone of us is undergoing as I write this. Now, if your thing happens to be the quest for the perfect mouthpiece, then at least be honest with yourself, it is the chase that you are into and not the solution.

The bottom line is this (again, IMHO) the name of the game is efficiency and flexibility and the best solution for an all-around game is middle of the road equipment coupled with focused, intelligent practise. Have fun experimenting but don't let it be the answer to your problems!

Jens Lindemann
www.trumpetsolo.com
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Absolutely!!

I like to think of it as playing the smallest, most efficient equipment that you can make a great sound with. And, in most cases, what we play is too big.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ex-Trumpet wrote:
^ Absolutely!!

I like to think of it as playing the smallest, most efficient equipment that you can make a great sound with. And, in most cases, what we play is too big.


I'm not sure I'd equate smallest and most efficient - it may be the case sometimes and for some players, or it may not...


At any rate, Jens' point seems to be that there's a sensible middle-ground where most people will be best off.

I would think that the (increasingly common) opinion that people seem to hold that smaller automatically equals more efficient is just as harmful as the stereotypical HS trumpet teacher pushing students to play increasingly large mouthpieces so they have something to "grow into"....

What matters is that the piece isn't unnecessarily inefficient for the sake of trying to fit a mould - whether that's trying to play something too big or too small.
(Yes, it's probably more common to be trying to use something too big - but I've known plenty of people using things that are too small for them, too).
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snichols
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Ex-Trumpet wrote:
^ Absolutely!!

I like to think of it as playing the smallest, most efficient equipment that you can make a great sound with. And, in most cases, what we play is too big.


I'm not sure I'd equate smallest and most efficient - it may be the case sometimes and for some players, or it may not...


At any rate, Jens' point seems to be that there's a sensible middle-ground where most people will be best off.

I would think that the (increasingly common) opinion that people seem to hold that smaller automatically equals more efficient is just as harmful as the stereotypical HS trumpet teacher pushing students to play increasingly large mouthpieces so they have something to "grow into"....

What matters is that the piece isn't unnecessarily inefficient for the sake of trying to fit a mould - whether that's trying to play something too big or too small.
(Yes, it's probably more common to be trying to use something too big - but I've known plenty of people using things that are too small for them, too).


I like Jens's use of the term "specialized equipment". I think everyone needs to remember that there are numerous playing situations. If you're an amateur playing in a community band, or are jamming to standards with a jazz quintet, or playing hymns for church services on Sunday, then yes, something in the middle of the road should be fine for most players. But some people ignore these distinctions and seem to think that what works for the average masses will work for the full-time orchestral player, or on the other end of the spectrum, the full-time lead/commercial player.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snichols wrote:

I like Jens's use of the term "specialized equipment". I think everyone needs to remember that there are numerous playing situations. If you're an amateur playing in a community band, or are jamming to standards with a jazz quintet, or playing hymns for church services on Sunday, then yes, something in the middle of the road should be fine for most players. But some people ignore these distinctions and seem to think that what works for the average masses will work for the full-time orchestral player, or on the other end of the spectrum, the full-time lead/commercial player.


Indeed - if you're a "rim matcher" who wants to use the same rim profile for everything they do (from orchestral trumpet, jazz, lead, picc, flugel, etc) then something in the range Jens suggests is probably sensible, assuming it fits.... if you're primarily an orchestral player or you're comfortable switching, then picking the right tool for the job makes sense.

I completely agree with the term "specialized equipment" - it reinforces the (IMHO correct) idea that extremely large or extremely small equipment should only be used for specialized situations or for players with special needs (huge or tiny lips, for example).


The use of the term "efficient" can cause a little confusion... I sometimes feel I'm in the minority, but the way I use the word is along the dictionary lines ("achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense"), meaning that it's about achieving the sound palette, dynamics, articulations (etc) that you want with as little wasted effort as possible - having to use an uncomfortable amount of air might be inefficient in one sense, having to manipulate tone too much might be another (one associated with equipment that's too big and too open, and the other the opposite... usually!)
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Ex-Trumpet
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Ex-Trumpet wrote:
^ Absolutely!!

I like to think of it as playing the smallest, most efficient equipment that you can make a great sound with. And, in most cases, what we play is too big.


I'm not sure I'd equate smallest and most efficient - it may be the case sometimes and for some players, or it may not...


At any rate, Jens' point seems to be that there's a sensible middle-ground where most people will be best off.

I would think that the (increasingly common) opinion that people seem to hold that smaller automatically equals more efficient is just as harmful as the stereotypical HS trumpet teacher pushing students to play increasingly large mouthpieces so they have something to "grow into"....

What matters is that the piece isn't unnecessarily inefficient for the sake of trying to fit a mould - whether that's trying to play something too big or too small.
(Yes, it's probably more common to be trying to use something too big - but I've known plenty of people using things that are too small for them, too).


"...that you can make a great sound with..." is the key operative in my statement. For some, that might be a 1C. For others it may be a Jet Tone MF. Too many variables; but, the most successful musicians will choose the equipment that can get them jobs--and keep them!
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
snichols wrote:

I like Jens's use of the term "specialized equipment". I think everyone needs to remember that there are numerous playing situations. If you're an amateur playing in a community band, or are jamming to standards with a jazz quintet, or playing hymns for church services on Sunday, then yes, something in the middle of the road should be fine for most players. But some people ignore these distinctions and seem to think that what works for the average masses will work for the full-time orchestral player, or on the other end of the spectrum, the full-time lead/commercial player.


Indeed - if you're a "rim matcher" who wants to use the same rim profile for everything they do (from orchestral trumpet, jazz, lead, picc, flugel, etc) then something in the range Jens suggests is probably sensible, assuming it fits.... if you're primarily an orchestral player or you're comfortable switching, then picking the right tool for the job makes sense...

The use of the term "efficient" can cause a little confusion... I sometimes feel I'm in the minority, but the way I use the word is along the dictionary lines ("achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense"), meaning that it's about achieving the sound palette, dynamics, articulations (etc) that you want with as little wasted effort as possible - having to use an uncomfortable amount of air might be inefficient in one sense, having to manipulate tone too much might be another (one associated with equipment that's too big and too open, and the other the opposite... usually!)


Due to some ill advised aggressive playing in Drum and Bugle Corps, Solo Soprano with a J Parduba Double Cup during my teen years, I developed a scar pattern on my upper lip that has ever since, dictated a very narrow range of Rim sizes for the most comfortable feel. Later in my early College years, I played Lead Trumpet in the Jazz Ensemble and "discovered" the Bob Reeves 1S695 (current Reeves designation 41 Rim) more like a Bach 7 with a much shallower cup than the 7C. This Rim size has been my standard since the early 1970s with changes in the bottom part of the mouthpiece as my playing requirements broadened, including matching the horns that I use. Efficiency, as TKSop defines above, is for me most accurate. Playing in a broad spectrum of situations demands different approaches and limited $$$ keeps me from experimental venturing very far in equipment changes but demands, IMHO, an equally broad, but purpose focused practice direction as well.
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you John as I had not read this before. I agree with Jens 100%. There has always been this underlying assumption that the larger the mouthpiece the better player you are. I remember this underlying assumption all through high school and my college days. The proof of this is smaller mouthpieces frequently being referred to as "cheater mouthpieces". Like somehow you are weaker and need this piece to "cheat."

The truth however is that each player has to find the equipment that helps them sound there best in any given playing situation. I have recently fallen in love with a Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon Personal with a 20 drill and I am not aware of the inner diameter measurements etc; however, I love the piece and what I get from it. I can play a long time on this piece without my chops getting taxed; however, when I switch to my Nicholson Monette Prana ... I can begin to feel the muscles around my chops working much harder as this mouthpiece is a very small v cup.

How does one know if they are playing efficiently? I have heard this a lot; however, still don't quite understand. Great posting!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RussellDDixon wrote:
Thank you John as I had not read this before. I agree with Jens 100%. There has always been this underlying assumption that the larger the mouthpiece the better player you are. I remember this underlying assumption all through high school and my college days. The proof of this is smaller mouthpieces frequently being referred to as "cheater mouthpieces". Like somehow you are weaker and need this piece to "cheat."

The truth however is that each player has to find the equipment that helps them sound there best in any given playing situation. I have recently fallen in love with a Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon Personal with a 20 drill and I am not aware of the inner diameter measurements etc; however, I love the piece and what I get from it. I can play a long time on this piece without my chops getting taxed; however, when I switch to my Nicholson Monette Prana ... I can begin to feel the muscles around my chops working much harder as this mouthpiece is a very small v cup.

How does one know if they are playing efficiently? I have heard this a lot; however, still don't quite understand. Great posting!


You're welcome Russell! It's nice to see this thread brought back again after just a few years (the hiatus from 2005 to 2015 was just way too long!).

Regarding what you wrote about the small Nicholson piece wearing out your face muscles quicker, I can relate - in the times in the past when I've tried to play on small mouthpieces (42S and/or 42M) one of the things that dissuades me rather quickly from them is I'll start practicing my Irons exercises and start feeling my face muscle cramp up before I'm through with the 20 or so minutes worth of flexibilities. Then I go back to my 43C or MV3C and all is well again...

Cheers,

John
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Ex-Trumpet
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RussellDDixon wrote:
Thank you John as I had not read this before. I agree with Jens 100%. There has always been this underlying assumption that the larger the mouthpiece the better player you are. I remember this underlying assumption all through high school and my college days. The proof of this is smaller mouthpieces frequently being referred to as "cheater mouthpieces". Like somehow you are weaker and need this piece to "cheat."

The truth however is that each player has to find the equipment that helps them sound there best in any given playing situation. I have recently fallen in love with a Marcinkiewicz Claude Gordon Personal with a 20 drill and I am not aware of the inner diameter measurements etc; however, I love the piece and what I get from it. I can play a long time on this piece without my chops getting taxed; however, when I switch to my Nicholson Monette Prana ... I can begin to feel the muscles around my chops working much harder as this mouthpiece is a very small v cup.

How does one know if they are playing efficiently? I have heard this a lot; however, still don't quite understand. Great posting!


Haha, this should generate several responses!!

My take...to generate "my sound" with the least amount of effort. Usually I will have better endurance with a quicker recovery time.

If you can play a long time on one piece vs another, I'd say you are playing more efficiently on that piece.

And take all comments with a grain of salt...it doesn't matter what you read here; the only thing that matters is what your audience hears!
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