Triple D

[trumpet1]

Help me out, I'm in high school, this is my 2nd year playing trumpet and I somehow have a really good range...
I can hit a G above high C as a note easily, without warming up...(that's dumb, I know)
I'm trying to go higher, I can squeal triple C's (C above C above high C) anytime and I can get triple D's 80% of the time...how can I turn those into notes, like Cat Anderson or Dizzzy?

PS, I have much less control above Double G...

[ This Message was edited by: trumpet1 on 2002-06-08 23:16 ]

[Schilkewilkie]

Triple D-

I'm in high school too, a sophmore in my second year of playing, and we're about even as far as range (finally somebody out there who's in my situation). Luckily, my father has been playing trumpet for 35 years...The Cadets Drum Corps, Maynard charts in big bands, etc...he's earned his stripes. To get to the point, my range has gotten to where it is through slow, long lip slurs, especially ones that you can barely or not quite do yet. There are two things that I always do that will MAXIMIZE my playing time (only about 40-60 minutes twice a day). First, ALWAYS keep your throat open and use only enough air to make the note sound full. Secondly, in your practice time, keep the tongue as FLAT on the bottom of your oral cavity as possible. Both of these will make your chops do the work, rather than using air, tongue compression, and a closed throat to do the work for you. I had this problem for about 6 months, until I corrected it. Now I'm back and better than ever. Believe me, two high schoolers man to man...these work. Plus, staying open (throat and tongue) will make your tone as dark and fat (phat as well) as as humanly possible. Tone is ALWAYS the most important...much more so than range. People, as I have learned in both genres of playing, are always MUCH more impressed with Carnival played perfectly with exceptional tone, rather than playing the Gospel John solo.

I'm curious as to where you are based...if you're in Jersey, this summer we'll have to jam it out in New York or Philly...there are some great clubs around here.

P.S. I play a Warburton 4XD (Bach 1X) and a Warburton 4SV ( 1X-D(?)), both on a Schilke X3 (.464 bore, 5 5/8 bell, Curry Magnum Hexcaps). What's your ax and pieces...just thought I'd ask for the sake of conversation.

[trumpet1]

I live in the mid-west....
anywhoo, I play a crappy, ghetto conn student trumpet that belongs to the school...

John Gospel solo? what's dat?

[ This Message was edited by: trumpet1 on 2002-06-10 18:08 ]

[Nicholas Dyson]

You could REALLY maximize your playing time, both right now, and the rest of your life by relying more on air, than chops. Your diaphram can push air A LOT longer than your chops can focus it. Trust me, or anyone else that's been around the block a time or two.... this works TONS better.

Practice scales, for hours. start on 3rd space C, go up one octave and back down slowly, once tongued, once slurred with a comfortable (not too loud/soft) and BEAUTIFUL sound. Concentrate on getting that quality sound on every single note. Then move it up a half step. Then another half step....

Going up the full octave so you are going high C to double C will be easy as pie, HUGE, and in control before you know it.

Lip Flexiblities are also key. I would recommend the Earl Irons 27 Groups of Exercises, and then graduating up to Chas Colin's Advanced Lip Flexibilities. Again, nice easy sound, concentrating on a nice sound. Practice slowly. I know it sucks, I did it too, but trust me, it's way worth it. Once you get done with the Colin book (I'm still trying, he he) go back to the Irons book and do the first 3 or 4 groups up an octave. If you're feeling strong, up two octaves. Again, don't force anything.... if it hurts, it's not right. If you feel like you're working too hard, you are. Read one of the other posts in this 'high range' forum entitled "Advanced Lip Flexibilities".

Air not pressure. Trust me, you'll teach it and preach it in the coming years....

_________________
Nick Dyson
Seattle, Washington

[ This Message was edited by: nicholas dyson on 2002-08-03 13:22 ]

[Pedro]

Schilkewilkie was tryin' to put you up on some Maynard stuff. "Gospel John" is a tune from the "Chameleon" recording. I'm pretty sure he's talkin' about the solo intro. Check it out! By the way, Nick gives some great long-term advise on using air rather than chops!

[ This Message was edited by: Pedro on 2002-06-12 17:27 ]

[trumpet1]

I can't seem to not get tired after high-noting....
and I need chops to get high note because air speed doesn't seem to make it high, but make it really loud :sad:

[ This Message was edited by: trumpet1 on 2002-06-20 20:11 ]

[Nicholas Dyson]

all you need for the upper register (yeah, all... as if it's a short list!) is good corners, and a great diaphram. (Scotty Englebright)

Playing high is a balance... I believe our good chap Roddy posted some percentages around here somewhere....

I know you don't WANT to believe us, but it's not the chops man, it's the air.
_________________
Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada

[trumpet1]

I believe you guys, that's exactly what my band director said...I just can't seem to use the air right...I keep squishing my lips smaller to go high, and it sounds OK, because using a lot of air seem to make it loud, and I can't go high for some reason...I donno, I can't go high with a lot of air...I think I'm doing something wrong...

help!!?

[Nicholas Dyson]

Trumpet1
You're right, if, once you're 'upstairs', you can't put the air behind it, you're doing something wrong. A lot of folks call this a 'reset'. The idea is, if you build your range on top of the 'normal' embochure, you will be able to play all the dynamic ranges of the horn in all the registers of the horn. There is a very good thread running with 'BugleBoy' and 'Walter' discussing whether the high register is about strength or balance. The thread is called, I believe, 'Mouthpiece on Red of Lip'. As you can see, it's not SUPPOSED to be about what we're talking about, but give it a read, one of their tangents has some very good information for you to think about and try out.

My suggestion to you would be this. Start HL Clarke's 1st study. Nice easy blow, concentrating on a good sound. Start on 1st space F, play all the exercises to the bottom of the horn and back up to the F. Do that 5 times a day, concentrating again, on a good sound and being comfortable.

The second week, start on the F, and go up to the 3rd space C and then all the way back down to the basement. 5 times a day, everyday for another week.

Continue like this - incrementally - as your body and playing dictate. DON'T FORCE ANYTHING. Don't use that reset anymore, I've got a few old students out there that used to do EXACTLY what you are, and with this exercises, a lot of patience, and me nagging them to stay relaxed, they are all playing comfortably, relaxed and loud as hell up to double C. Do it now, as it will get harder and harder to change in the long run....

Good luck, and make sure you keep us posted on your progress!
_________________
Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada

[limits_unknown]

Nick,

If you're thinking of the same post from Roddy that I am, it's :

33% LIP CURL,
33% COMPRESSION,
33% TENSION

But I highly suggest you read the whole post, it's long, but helpful!

Here's a link:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=2822&forum=2&11

[Nicholas Dyson]

Mr. Unknown.
Thank you for posting that link, I agree that the percentages are a worthless piece of information without the explanation and general Roddy-ness.

Also, the thread that I referenced earlier between BugleBoy and Walter is here:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=2854&forum=2&19
_________________
Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada

[DSR]

What happens when you try to put lots of air behind those squeakers?
Does it cause a choke or impede the tone? Or does it just not get any louder?

Remember...high notes = fast air

Shilkie said something about leaving the tongue flat in the bottom of the mouth. I couldn't disagree more. One of the ways a performer achieves a rapid air stream is through allowing the air to travel over a confined pathway overtop of the tongue. (by enunciating "eeee") You can still get a "fat" sound if the tongue level is changed for different registers.

High register is not only tongue arch though. It's a combination of lips rolling in, pivot (in my opinion), lip pucker (thrusting the corners forward toward the RIM of the mouthpiece...some people might just call this "corners"), and air power from the gut. The latter two being the most important for the extreme upper register. Oh ya, you're probably already do this naturally but...firm buttocks are also important. No joking.



[ This Message was edited by: DSR on 2002-06-23 12:30 ]

[_bugleboy]

Trumpet1,

"Help me out, I'm in high school, this is my 2nd year playing trumpet and I somehow have a really good range...
I can hit a G above high C as a note easily, without warming up...(that's dumb, I know)
I'm trying to go higher, I can squeal triple C's (C above C above high C) anytime and I can get triple D's 80% of the time...how can I turn those into notes, like Cat Anderson or Dizzzy?"

You sound like the second coming! Triple Cs, anytime, in your second year. It sounds like you could be telling us something rather than the other way around.

DSR said,

"Remember...high notes = fast air"

Actually the thing to remember is that this is not true for everyone. For me faster air produces louder notes. I get high notes by practicing a lot of calisthenics that develop balance in the facial muscles.

[DSR]

bugleboy said,

"Actually the thing to remember is that this is not true for everyone. For me faster air produces louder notes. I get high notes by practicing a lot of calisthenics that develop balance in the facial muscles. "

If you had a performer play a low c, middle c, and high c all at the same dynamic levels and observed them through a plexi-glass mouthpiece, the low, middle, and high cs would each have a smaller aperture, respectively. On the high c or even higher, the air is flying through that little hole! Now, if you played a mf middle c and then a ff high c, the apertures would be close to the same size. In general then we can say, as one ascends at a constant volume level, the aperture decreases in size and the air pressure increases along with the air velocity.

Calisthenics like Caruso would allow you to over time achieve greater lip compression, thus creating a smaller aperture for the upper register. They also give you the necessary muscle strength to hold a small aperture at louder volume levels.

This is physics, really. If you play a penny whistle and blow harder (faster air), the pitch goes up. When you are whistling and you raise the tongue arch in the mouth, the air rushes through the narrowed pathway over the tongue to create a higher pitch.

[_bugleboy]

DSR said,

***** If you had a performer play a low c, middle c, and high c all at the same dynamic levels
and observed them through a plexi-glass mouthpiece, the low, middle, and high cs would each have a smaller aperture, respectively. *****

Let’s observe the scenario that occurs when I play and perhaps for others. I invite everyone to try these examples and see what the results are for yourself. Keep the same pitch and increase the air speed. What happens? The volume goes up. Decrease the airspeed while maintaining the same pitch. What happens? The volume decreases. Now, try to maintain the same air pressure, but apply more lip tension for resistance. What happens? The pitch goes up, the airspeed gets slower and slower as the volume gets softer and softer until eventually there is no sound. So I conclude that, in my playing, air speed determines dynamic levels (volume) and pitch is determined by lip tension. Air speed is controlled by air pressure induced by the respiratory muscles; lip tension is controlled by the muscles of the face.


***** On the high c or even higher, the air is flying through that little hole! *****

If this occurs for me. I am playing a loud High C. Do it all the time.

***** Now, if you played a mf middle c and then a ff high c, the apertures would be close to the same size. *****

This may be true but it doesn’t address the amount of lip mass that is vibrating. I’m not sure that the aperture is an accurate measurement of vibrating lip mass.

***** In general then we can say, as one ascends at a constant volume level, the aperture decreases in size and the air pressure increases along with the air velocity. *****

I’d like to see some experiments to show this.

***** Calisthenics like Caruso would allow you to over time achieve greater lip compression, thus creating a smaller aperture for the upper register. *****

I am becoming more convinced that variations in vibrating lip mass are crucial to understanding and a more accurate way to represent the nature of what is happening with the lips in the upper register. A decrease in aperture is probably the result of a decreased vibrating lip mass.


***** They also give you the necessary muscle strength to hold a small aperture at louder volume levels.

This is physics, really. If you play a penny whistle and blow harder (faster air), the pitch goes up. When you are whistling and you raise the tongue arch in the mouth, the air rushes through the narrowed pathway over the tongue to create a higher pitch. *****

Aren’t the vibrating sources different in a penny whistle and in normal whistling than they are in trumpet playing? Isn’t the physics different for vibrating lips than it is for a flute or a penny whistle?

[Emb_Enh]

Basically - to turn squeels into notes, play tunes at mezzoforte at a register which is just below the squeely stuff [decent sounding highest register] and keep transposing up a half step ONLY when the squeel has become a note. Use plenty of air support / keep the mouthpiece pressure at a minimum and go into the lower register from the high one and back up on occasion to check your not becoming specialised. This is the way to turn squeels into a proper workable / usable note.

GOOD RANGE COULD BE DEFINED AS....

...Not just a low loud fat sound...but,....a low loud fat sound that EASILY comes up and out into the normal or upper register under control as if nothing had happened without losing lip/aperture focus.....

...conversely.....

not just a high loud fat sound...but....a high loud fat sound that EASILY goes down into lower register under control and goes back up as if nothing had happened without losing lip/aperture focus......
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[trumpet1]

I hit double C as a note...an ACTUAL NOTE!!
YAY!!!!!!!

as far as normal playing is concerned, I can play anything with good tone and balance up to F above hi C... My max squeek range is up to triple E (and I nearly pased out...and my eyes are looking red...)

I don't know if this little bit of info might help this post...I'm on a conn student trumpet...really messed up horn...mouthpiece on the small end is not round...and it's really dinged up...I'm thinking about a Yamaha Allegro...

[trumpet1]

DOUBLE C#!

[trumpet1]

I lost it againg, it's back to G above high C, my actual note that is...

[funkymonkey]

i think high notes are one of the most frustrating things to a trumpet player.. you can have it one day.. and the next day, its gone..