Tounge arch and air speed

kalijah · Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:36 pm Post subject:

Pops,

If you bunch the tounge up, as in your exanple, the more you introduce resistive and frictional effects which will cause rapid loss of air energy. (it will not increase it) BUT it is of short duration and can easily be made up by an increase of pressure from the abdomen.

But then efficiency is not helped.

But if one belts out a double C at fff using this I doubt I would rag him over efficiency. (Even thoug I think efficient playing IS important)

Either way, sufficient energy to play the note will have to be supplied.

If you believe that the increased air-speed will increase the energy you are mistaken becase you are also decreasing the air mass available proportionally.

Now if your system of "forward touge" is an aid in tensioning the embouchure alone I might buy into it.

All along you have been using the term "arch" when in effect you are making a tounge "funnel". But I won't hold that against you.

DJ

kalijah · Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:02 pm Post subject:

Lee said:

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:11 pm Post subject:

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:16 pm Post subject:

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:18 pm Post subject:

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

The goal is to sound great.

JoeCool · Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:15 am Post subject:

But what happens if I eat a ton of chips and salsa the night before and then the next morning my tongue feels all thick and fuzzy, will this affect tongue arch??!!

dnlrsnbm · Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:33 am Post subject:

Hi,
Dan Rosenboom here. In my opinion, people think about tongue placement too much. My teacher in college, James Thompson, had a very good philospohy about this (applicable to most aspects of physical technique): "Don't think so much about what your body, face, mouth, lips, tongue, etc. are doing...just playing with an open beautiful tone in the center of the pitch at all times. You have time, even in fast passages, to place every not in the center. Always come back to the sound...don't worry about how it feels, just listen to the sound. If you are playing with a beautiful sound in the center of the pitch, you are playing correctly." (Paraphrasing).

All the best,
Dan Rosenboom
dnlrsnbm@hotmail.com
www.danielrosenboom.com (Coming Soon!)

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

_bugleboy · Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:48 am Post subject:

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

Hmmm. It does seem to me, (as Pops says in different words) that the effect of a raised tongue is more pronounced on an embouchure that does NOT roll in. I can vouch for that.

I play two different embouchures, the newer one being a significantly rolled in one while the older one is more pooched out. Only on the more outwardly puckered chops does the raised tongue have any effect at all. And the only effect I can obtain there with a raised tongue/constriction is to acheive a quicker or more efficient interval jump. Especially the lip slur.

These observations tend to make me draw more proof that what i said in an earlier post is accurate. That is that a tongue arch is more likely to be effective in a less tightly compressed embouchure. But once at or above a High C or so the arch is pretty much useless as the chops are tightly closed.

In a rolled in embouchure the very nature of increased air pressure tends to push the lips closer together. When they get bunched together the resistance increases and makes the lips less responsive to tongue movement. So a tongue arch appears to have no effect on interval movement in these rolled in chop settings. Or so it seems to me.

tpter1 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 1194

Dave and dnlrsnbm seem to be coming at this concept from a more aural point of view...allowing the body to match the sound, rather than hyperanalysis of physical attributes. As a player, that seems to be the most important thing. That is, after all, what we are after: our ideal sound and getting to match our concept with what's actually coming out of the bell.

As teachers, we need to be aware of what techniques produce which results, which explains (to me at least) Pops's and other more analytical approaches.

Very intersting to see and read different angles and how each of us approach essentially the same problem.

Pops · Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:20 am Post subject:

The better I understand not just what to do or how to do but even WHY something helps; then the better I can guide a student into something that helps them.

I am not openly analytical with a student. They don't need to know the process I went through to guide them.

BUT this is a TOTALLY and completely WRITTEN medium.

There is NO way to lead by example HERE. And so to me explaining things is the ONLY thing that makes sense (to me). I can't play an example for you. I can't show you. I can only explain.

In person everything is different. EXCEPT that those who like discussion know that I can do that too (from reading my webpage or a forum). So those who ask why do get some explanation.

(This has happened before online but not really on this thread. But talking about being analytical reminded me of this.)

I think it's funny that people who say things like; they don't believe that trumpet can be taught or that one should never think about it or explain it; even bother to read or post on a forum.

The things that they say shouldn't or can't be done is ALL that CAN be done here.
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HiRangeKid · Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:55 am Post subject:

I have tried on many occasions to raise my tongue to help in high note production but nothing seemed to work. If only clogged my air stream and made it even harder to relax and focus on the end result causing me stop all sound completely.

Maybe I was doing it all wrong. Some things work for others that wont work for you. If this was as easy to play as to thoerize what makes what easier we all would be Arturos and Bergerons.
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John Mohan · Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:58 pm Post subject:

Hi there,

If you arched your tongue and it stopped or hindered the sound, one of two things were happening:

1) You improperly arched your tongue up and back toward the back of the mouth. This causes the feeling of choking off the sound or "closing the throat" (which doesn't really happen as one cannot "close" their throat). Raising the tongue toward the back creates the same effect as pinching a garden hose a few inches before the end of it - the air velocity is slowed down as is the water in a garden hose.

Properly arching the tongue up and forward in the mouth (as in when saying "sea") speeds up the air velocity as does a nozzle on the end of a hose. And this is the secret to the upper register. It is impossible to play higher on a brass instrument without arching the tongue.

or:

2) You are arching correctly, but you've simply reached the highest notes you can play without generating more air pressure. At a given level of strength (Air Power), there is only so much tongue arch can do! For a player of average physical development, the player's highest full-volume note is usually around a D or Eb if they are playing correctly. After this the player can get a few notes higher in range, but at this point, since he cannot generate more air-pressure, the notes get softer.

Through doing the Part 1 exercises in Claude Gordon's "Systematic Approach" book properly, one can develop the Air Power necessary to reach the highest notes. And through doing the Part 2 exercises in the book as well as the supplemental material the book assigns, one can learn the "feel" of the high register gradually, in a systematic way.

Or, one can try the above for a few weeks, then impatiently move on to the next idea, then the next, then maybe write a post of frustration on the Herald, eliciting all kinds of responses and theories from uninformed players who might even know less then the original poster, followed by a spat of Internet Flame-Wars.

And that is why so few develop a good upper register. Developing the ability to play high notes is easy, if you practice correctly and stick with it. It can take some time, but if you practice correctly it's inevitable. Fortunately for players like me, few seem to do this. Even if they get on the right track, their impatience leads them right off the path again and back to the frustration of "trying this and trying that." But I hope you have the patience to stick with it and join those of us who did and have reaped the benefits. As Claude always said, there's plenty of room at the top, and there's plenty of room at the bottom. It's the middle that's overcrowded.

Best wishes to you all this Holiday Season,

John Mohan
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Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
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trpt.hick · Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:53 pm Post subject:

In my opinion, John Mohan hit the nail 100% ON THE HEAD!!

If I can, I will add just another thought....

What John describes is the traditional way of playing and is used by a huge majority of players now and ever before. It is the best way to get a more "open" (and I don't merely mean loud) sound from the trumpet. It is a more "orchestral" or "operatic" type of sound. This is the way I play and so do 99.999% of all "legit" (orchestrally trained players), even though some of them have develped excellent upper registers for big band playing.

Some players, on the other hand, have successfully developed a different kind of embouchure (Balanced Embouchure lip clamp, Superchops, Tongue Controlled Embouchure, etc.) which will assist greatly in the development of notes above high C. As some people pointed out earlier in this thread, these types of embouchure create much greater resistance at the lips and therefore need MUCH stronger air compression. Raising the tongue ANYWHERE will tend to impeed the flow of air. These systems need a very open oral cavity with the air being pushed hard from the gut. This can cause neck, lip, or cheek puffing quite frequently.....not necessarily a bad thing if controlled and built up gradually so that the neck and facial muscles can develop strength along with it. This type of embouchure does not sound as "orchestral" or "operatic" in my opinion (and I think I speak for most all symphonic players on this) in the lower, middle, and mid-high ranges of the trumpet....maybe up to high E or F, but the results above that can be astonishing.

A few top players have developed ways to play unbelievably well in ALL registers with the traditional embouchure and tongue arch method. However, it is somewhat rare to find players of this type that have really impressive high registers. On the other hand, players that have developed the highly resistant lips embouchures (no tongue arch) can usually scream all day long but do not sound all that beautiful in the middle and lower registers. (I know some flamers will pounce on this, but I think it is even MORE RARE to find someone of this type that has a truly impressive middle and low register "orchestral" sound when using these embouchures.)

I know that Arturo Sandoval incorporates both traditional and Tongue Controlled Embouchure in his playing. He plays with the traditional Claude Gordon-type approach until going above G (above high C), where he will seamlessly shift to the Callet-style method. Herbert Clarke played exactly the same way. Neither, however, use or used the same embouchure type and tongue position for all registers. They learned to switch effortlessly.

There seem to be several facts of life which are completely opposite, yet each is 100% correct and valid. For example:

Some people's belly buttons are "innies," and other people's are "outties."

Some people are left handed and some are right handed.

Some trumpet players place the mouthpiece more on the upper lip, and some place it more on the lower lip.

Some people prefer one embouchure/tongue arch method over another because they get better results (sound and range) for WHAT THEIR OWN PREFERENCES ARE. So what? It doesn't matter!

Dave Hickman

PS. I think that as long as both styles of embouchures are used, players will NEVER agree on which is best. They are simply different, each with its own advantages and disavantages.

mcamilleri · Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:55 pm Post subject:

Great post Dave.

Just a clarification about the Balanced Embouchure lip clamp. It is not an embouchure, it is merely a range-of-motion exercise used in the early stages of the method. Some BE players do modify it and use elements of it in normal playing, and some do not.

The Balanced Embouchure is not an embouchure 'type' like TCE, Superchops, Stevens, Farkas etc

Michael
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trpt.hick · Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:53 pm Post subject:

Michael,

Thanks. I have read the book Jeff gave me and I am reading it again over the holiday break. I appreciate the clarification.

DH

tptguy · Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:30 pm Post subject:

Not to beat up on Dave, who is afterall, only trying to make the world a nicer, friendlier place for all systems that truly work, but I need to jump in and address one point:

<<these types of embouchure create much greater resistance at the lips >>

Callet's "Tongue Controlled Embouchure" is devoted to decreasing resistance at the lips. It has been a godsend for so many players like me where previous systems of "lip controlled embouchures" or "arch assisted embouchures" weren't succeeding. Best regards, Kyle