Tounge arch and air speed

[kalijah]

[dbacon]

<< Developing the ability to play high notes is easy, if you practice correctly and stick with it. It can take some time, but if you practice correctly it's inevitable.>>

John's point here is well worth remembering.

And many players find the front tongue arch to work very well for them.

[trpt.hick]

Kyle:

I'm sure you are correct. Jerry gave me the new TCE book in Ft. Worth and offered to work with me to explain it fully. We tried to get a bit of free time together but didn't manage to do it. After reading the book several times, I tried the method and couldn't get it to work at all for me.

In my Trumpet Pedagogy class, I went over the method with seven of my more advanced students and asked each of them to try it for a week. Only one was able to make it work. He could play chromatically up with a good sound, and then switched to the TCE at about high D and went on up to a nice double C. After the applause by the class, he stated that he had never played that high before (by at least a fourth!). He appeared to be playing very effortlessly, too. We were impressed. So, after listening to the student explain how it felt to him and trying to give more insights into the method, everyone (including me) was excited to keep on trying. However, no one else seemed to make it work.

I'll keep trying!

DH

[oj]

Dave,

I really like what you do with your students (and yourself)! This is something other teachers really could learn from.

A question I have been asking myself is this:

Why did Clarke only call it a trick / stunt? (see part of his letter to Fred Elias below). Did he not like the sound he got in the lower register, or? I have heard from a student of Claude Gordon that Clarke at one time also showed this trick to Gordon.

[Pops]

[trpt.hick]

Pops,

There are some very smart posters on TH, and you are certainly one of them! Thanks for this last post. It helps me understand why me and my students have trouble with new ideas. Even though we sincerely give them a shot, our brain and muscles are trained to work against them. No wonder they don't work quickly! (And, of course, anyone that has ever gone through some sort of embouchure "overhaul" will know how long and difficult the new road can be for awhile.)

As for the question about Clarke only using TCE as a high note "trick," I cannot say. He was self taught, so we may never know where he learned this. Also, he does not mention this in any of his books.

I know that this thread is beginning to stray, but it is all very important to understand. (NOTE TO MONITORS: Please don't move anything!)

DH

[_Don Herman]

While we're straying, I find it interesting that only fairly recently am I coupling "closed" with "relaxed"... That is, realizing that a closed aperture, at least starting out, doesn't always imply "tense" or "tight" chops. Nor "pinched" sound... Somewhat a revelation.

YMMV - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[ustacouldplay]

Pops,

That was one of the best posts I've ever read on the internet regarding any topic. Thanks for posting it.
_________________
John Ford's next stop:

[Pops]

Thanks Mr. H;

I admire your work and have enjoyed hearing you and your students.


You understand exactly what I meant. I don't have to play so I can experiment with myself much more than you can. (It used to scare me sometimes but I can switch back to myself easily now.)



Don;
Thanks for sharing that.
I have done the closed aperture for so long that the 2 things (closed and relaxed) go hand in hand.

You can also think of closed as touching.
You can just barely touch (so gently that the force couldn't be measured) or you could squeeze it shut (pounds and pounds of pressure). Of course one of those would sound tense and be hard to control.

For me the lips are just like they are at rest. I just add a very slight firmness at the cheeks and blow air. That starts my buzz and is how I play.
Others will of course feel differently.
_________________
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com

[dbacon]

Exceptional, Pops!!

Some of the best material ever done on the Herald!!!!!

Thanks for getting us to think about this a bit differently!

[tptguy]

It's very nice to see such an open discussion about varied teaching techniques without rancor. As Pops and Dave point out, different things do work differently for different people. And the brass world as we know it, won't end by giving some alternatives a try. Just a couple very brief points, as this is not the forum to discuss Jerry Callet's methods in any detail. First, the overwhelming majority of players I've run into at the Callet studio are professional players, not comeback players. It may be helpful to note that contemporary systems such as BE and TCE recognize that real players have to go on making a living. So, they've developed training techniques that allow players to "move over" while not upsetting the apple cart.

Secondly, I've never met a serious TCE student that used it for just the upper register. And, I've never met a serious TCE student that didn't greatly improve their tone and intonation throughout their range. However, I've run into a number of players and teachers with limited exposure to TCE who have used only bits and pieces - usually misunderstood bits and pieces. As to be expected, these results were spotty at best.

Dave, though I know of several students who have attained almost instantaneous results from SC and TCE, they certainly are the exception. It's probably safe to guess that your one overachiever was already using a good bit of TCE and just needed some tweaking. Most of us need considerable time to build the new tongue strength and coordination that TCE requires. That is why it's recommended to build TCE from the bottom up.

Lastly, someone suggested that the primary reason professional players don't experiment with varied pedagogies is that they have to keep on earning a living and can't risk messing with that. While there is no doubt truth to that, I think there are two other reasons that may be more significant. First, a lot of tpt pros are pros because tradititional techniques did work at least reasonably well for them. For that reason, they were able to move ahead of less "lucky" players. The obvious response, though not necessarily always the best, is why mess with a good thing? Additionally, in my experience, professional players often feel they've accomplished about as much as their talents or natural abilities allow. Sure, they all know of other pros that display much greater abilities while practicing less, but they ascribe that to luck of the draw. Fellow trumpeters, most of whom are in the same boat, discourage them from taking a bold step into uncharted territory even if it's obvious that something more should be done. I think we all know of pros that sweat bullets trying to maintain their level while refusing to give anything new a try (other than a new mouthpiece, of course!) While there is no substitute for intense practice, there is still a lot that can be learned by teachers, pros players, and students alike. I think polite discussions like this can truly open new territory. IMHO, Kyle

[trpt.hick]

Kyle:

Good words!

Regardless of embouchure development systems, people should realize that to be a really GREAT player it just plain takes tons of time and practice. I know, and have known many of the greats and I can say without any doubt that they all practiced much harder than most professionals out there.

People always marvel at the amazing talents of Andre, Vizzutti, Hardenberger, Herseth, Mendez, Severinsen, etc. and chalk it up to some sort of genius they possess. While they certainly have a mind to be musically creative, most of the techniques of playing the trumpet and most music they will have ever learned is through sheer sweat. Some of these players went through extradordinary pains to get where they are, including embouchure accidents which left them being unable to play for months.

Statistics show that most millionaires that go bankrupt end up becoming millionaires again. This, I'm sure, is because of personal ambition, work ethic, and a never die attitude as much as it is the creative gene they MIGHT possess. Interviews with Andre, Bud, or Doc state that they continue to practice more than anyone else they know....even at retirement age!

I bring this up because you mentioned how many pros feel that they have topped out and stop trying to develop their embouchures, thinking that that is all they can get out of their chops. While this is true, I serious doubt that many have actually reached their potential. Obviously, the better one becomes, the more difficult it is to improve. But, the lack of further work should not rationalize a need to change embouchure systems in hopes that a magic cure will be around the corner. I'm sure you agree.

It's bedtime. Time to get off of my soap box!

Dave Hickman

[LeeC]

I kinda agree with your thoughts Dave suggesting doubt about how maxed out a proficient players chops can be. Every time I look at a video of my own regular embouchure (which is a version similar to the Maggio System) I always get the feeling that I'd have a stronger upper register if i simply just practiced more.

But along the lines of Pop's post:

The failure of the Stevens System in so many players results from physical factors related to both the rolled in chops and the forward jaw position.

Under the above described set up (a major part of the Stevens-Costello "Triple C Embouchure Technique") it is hard for a lot of players to get much resonance. At least on common, standard trumpet mouthpieces anyway. This is probably due to the physical resonance quality variants of the human lip (texture of the vibrating surface). I can't prove this but it seems reasonable to me.

Anyway, if you experiment on a significantly rolled in embouchure you might be able to radically increase the inner rim dimension of a trumpet mouthpiece in order to get enough resonance and still blow some EXTREMELY high notes.

The effective increase in embouchure "leverage" into the upper register on the Stevens System and other rolled in methods is so great that it's possible to blow some fairly impressive sounding double C's even on a trombone mouthpiece.

I am very serious about that last statement.

[tptguy]

Dave, My standard is "continuous, steady progress". With serious, well-directed regular practice everyone should see continuous, steady progress in range, endurance, power, tone, intonation, and technique. Sure, there will be some ups and downs, but the ups should clearly outweigh the downs. And, the overall line should definitely be ever upward. It's pretty easy by ear to tell where a player is and where their current setup is likely to take them. These are the guidelines I use in determining how much we can rely on the player's current foundation vs how strongly we need to consider a different longterm one. Best regards, Kyle