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Problems with breath attacks


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Tal Katz
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 780
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: Problems with breath attacks Reply with quote

I've been doing the Caruso Six notes and 2nds for 4 weeks now doing Six notes everyday and 2nds every other day. But every time I get to Caruso, which I do after I warm-up and practice some fundamentals regularly, it seems to me that I don't get it right. It always feels completely different from my regular way of playing. I follow the rules but having trouble with the breath attacks. When I play with a breath attack I don't get the same sound quality as I get when I use my tongue. It might have something to do with mouthpiece placement, tongue level or embouchure. I'm pretty sure it's not a problem with the way I breath.

Does anyone else have any problems like that with breath attacks ?
Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks !
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Jerry Freedman
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Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 2427
Location: Burlington, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are following the rules, you ae not supposed to worry about how it feels or how it sounds. Things will work out eventually
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5388
Location: Bloomington Indiana

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry about how it sounds or feels. Do these exercises properly and things get fixed by repetition, not by making conscious changes in how you play.

If things sound or feel wierd it just shows that the exercises are already exposing and changing inefficiency in how you have played previously.

Stay the course.
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Tal Katz
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 780
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is what I keep doing. I'm just afraid there is no point for me to practice like that because I'm afraid I get used to play with bad sound like that. How could the sound not be important ? I thought that if you sound bad you're probably doing something wrong.

I guess I'll just keep following the rules and do these exercises for awhile and see if anything helpful happens.
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Jerry Freedman
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Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 2427
Location: Burlington, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tal Katz wrote:
That is what I keep doing. I'm just afraid there is no point for me to practice like that because I'm afraid I get used to play with bad sound like that. How could the sound not be important ? I thought that if you sound bad you're probably doing something wrong.

I guess I'll just keep following the rules and do these exercises for awhile and see if anything helpful happens.


Sound is important but not when doing the exercises. The exercises are not to be considered music but are calesthenic. Just do them according to the rules and, in other practicing and playing, play as you normally would and pay attention to sound etc. Just not on the Caruso stuff
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pepperdean
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Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 555
Location: Johnson City, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd suggest using the MSN as your warmup followed by Seconds. Do both on a daily basis. These both do a good job of blowing out the cobwebs from the previous day's playing and they set you up perfectly for whatever your playing demands are on each given day.

Don't worry about the sound of any notes, just follow the directions.

Alan
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JoeCool
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 2231
Location: Wimberley, TX

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Alan...what is the 'MSN'??!!?

BTW...when is the next big chili cookoff in Johnson City?
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AverageJoe
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 4116
Location: Atlanta, GA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go see Laurie Frink...isn't she in your neck of the woods, Tal? I'm sure having her see/hear you will be more valuable than anything we can offer here second-hand...

Paul Poovey
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pepperdean
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 555
Location: Johnson City, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops! MSN is my abbreviation for Magic Six Notes.

No more chili in JC until next March but we're cookin' at the Lone Star RV Park in Austin in three weeks.

Alan
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TrpPro
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Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1294
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AverageJoe wrote:
Go see Laurie Frink...isn't she in your neck of the woods, Tal? I'm sure having her see/hear you will be more valuable than anything we can offer here second-hand...Paul Poovey


Going to see any former Caruso student is likely to be more valuable than what could be offered here, and going to see the foremost Caruso student would be the best option of all. So is the implication somehow that there is no value to the opinions expressed here by several former students who studied extensively with Mr. Caruso? Did you study with Mr. C?
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AverageJoe
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Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 4116
Location: Atlanta, GA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrpPro wrote:
AverageJoe wrote:
Go see Laurie Frink...isn't she in your neck of the woods, Tal? I'm sure having her see/hear you will be more valuable than anything we can offer here second-hand...Paul Poovey


Going to see any former Caruso student is likely to be more valuable than what could be offered here, and going to see the foremost Caruso student would be the best option of all. So is the implication somehow that there is no value to the opinions expressed here by several former students who studied extensively with Mr. Caruso? Did you study with Mr. C?


Easy, big fella! I meant no ill-will towards anyone here...your initial observation is what I meant. Sorry if I offended...I just thought the benefits of seeing Ms. Frink in person was worth mentioning.

No, I didn't study with Carmine, but I respect and admire what he did for those who worked with him, and I use a few of his principles in my own teaching/playing (at least as I understand them).

Paul
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Tal Katz
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 780
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh wow... I haven't checked this thread for a while. Was busy practicing
Thanks for the responses. Things actually got better and I can feel some benefits from doing Caruso so far. I'm not in NY at the moment, so I can't get a lesson with Laurie Frink, but I will as soon as I get back.
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trumpetdiva1
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Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 1423

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the payoffs from playing these exercises, regardless of how you sound on them, is that your sound will eventually get better from playing them.

I was told in my lessons with Laurie Frink that it is always good to play Caruso on a fresh set of chops. She would ask me before she continued with a lesson if I had played that much today. So, it is good to begin your practice session with the Magic Six Notes and then the intervals or not have played that much before practicing these exercises. Laurie is now offering online lessons. Just a suggestion.

Does anyone know why it is called the MSN other than because it works like magic?

Janell
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pepperdean
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 555
Location: Johnson City, Texas

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a lot fo good informaiton offered in this forum. Much can be gained from reading it and following the general adivice. As with everything on the Internet, everyone has instant credibility, and sometimes their input gets extreme.

As a former Caruswo student, I frequently hesitate to comment in the TH forums because of the sometimes harsh repsonse posters get from some of the "authorities" out there.

I do believe Carmine's students have a better perspective on how to apply particular strategies to individual players. Study with one if you can.

Alan
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LeeC
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Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 5730

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caruso is a great set of studies

I don't know if we're allowed to make constructive criticism here. My feeling is that embouchure design itself can be critical to obtaining unlimited range. In other words range and endurance without limit.

Now if you don't need or desire unlimited range then maybe Caruso is the best method. It won't try and rearrange your existing chops so there is no fear of going on fishing trips to find a positioning of facial and lip muscles/jaw movement that takes ALL the limits away from the player.

From what I've seen the CAruso system doesn't address the matter directly. Apparently the development of muscle use and positioning is developed through practice and not through direct musculature positioning. All well and good.

But what about the player who really wants a very easy Double C? Can the caruso system deliver the good in the majority of cases?

I don't think so. My feeling is that (in a figurative sense) it will tune up the car and getting it running well, but it won't always compete at Daytona unless the player already has the latent potential to run that well "under the hood".

Now if that aspiring player has that potential capacity then maybe Caruso is the most efficient way to uncover that strength. If not? they will just have a more efficient but limited embouchure.
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JoeCool
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 2231
Location: Wimberley, TX

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeeC wrote:
Caruso is a great set of studies

I don't know if we're allowed to make constructive criticism here. My feeling is that embouchure design itself can be critical to obtaining unlimited range. In other words range and endurance without limit.

Now if you don't need or desire unlimited range then maybe Caruso is the best method. It won't try and rearrange your existing chops so there is no fear of going on fishing trips to find a positioning of facial and lip muscles/jaw movement that takes ALL the limits away from the player.

From what I've seen the CAruso system doesn't address the matter directly. Apparently the development of muscle use and positioning is developed through practice and not through direct musculature positioning. All well and good.

But what about the player who really wants a very easy Double C? Can the caruso system deliver the good in the majority of cases?

I don't think so. My feeling is that (in a figurative sense) it will tune up the car and getting it running well, but it won't always compete at Daytona unless the player already has the latent potential to run that well "under the hood".

Now if that aspiring player has that potential capacity then maybe Caruso is the most efficient way to uncover that strength. If not? they will just have a more efficient but limited embouchure.


You are thinking of Caruso in the sense of it being a range method and it is not. Range is a by product of balance and efficiency. The 'method' won't work unless the conscious mind get's out of the way. The body knows how to do stuff. We just need to let it do it's thing. That's why you don't get it, Lee, because you're a nuts and bolts kind of guy. You're over analyzing.
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pepperdean
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Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 555
Location: Johnson City, Texas

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee,

I think you're really talking about getting to the same point through different approaches. I believe Carmine's system is much more fool-proof than trying to build a model from scratch.

I went to Carmine, at first, because I had attempted to build a better embouchure for myself. I was a conservatory graduate and could play double C on my Bach 1 1/2 before I started the transformation. After months, my embouchure looked better but I sure couldn't play as well. I was struggling to cover the parts I had to play for work.

I think that every mouth is unique and requires its own unique balance while attempting to achieve compression, air velocity, etc. I believe it's challenging for a player to determine exactly what the model is to achieve that balance for himself and to construct it from scratch.

Carmine's system, on the other hand, always moves you toward better embouchure balance (balance=design). Your playing only gets better and progress is a guarantee.

As with any method, the desired end result is not immediate. However, progress toward that goal is continuous. Carmine said "higher notes require better balance." With his system, you steadily achieve better balance along with tone, endurance, felxibility, range, etc. Everyone who stays on course achieves their perfect design and all of the great playing that goes along with it.

Alan
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LeeC
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Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 5730

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm not dissing the Caruso system at all. Am merely focusing on the relative innate characteristics of one embouchure compared to the next.

Not all chop set ups will "sit" on a DHC nor even have the latent capacity to do so. Surely there is plenty of music to be played below that note. And lots of room for improvement even on a player who can get that note.

Take Charly R. for instance. Haven't seen him in thirty years. However as far back as I remember he had a working DHC.

My own original embouchure simply isn't capable of blowing that note on a regular basis. A decent High F/G or so but no more. So I switched to something else and now I have the notes above that fairly easily.

Now from what I know about embouchure I can swear to you that even if I did Caruso exercises for five years daily on my natural, original chops there is just no way I'd have developed notes in excess of High G. I'd simply just have achieved a better and more reliable High G.

Again: Plenty of music below those notes.

Point here? Maybe nothing specific. Just that the development of chops through better sub conscious training (Caruso) or through direct manipulation of physical matters (various systems like Stevens, Callet, Reinhardt) seems to hold different options or end results. I gravitate towards a combination of the two.

That's just me. I wouldn't have been happy with "just a High G" regardless of how well i could play it. I wanted the whole spectrum and the knowledge of WHY some folks were range limited and others aren't.

Again: Caruso seems like a pretty good program.
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gennaro
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Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 151
Location: italy

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeeC wrote:


Now from what I know about embouchure I can swear to you that even if I did Caruso exercises for five years daily on my natural, original chops there is just no way I'd have developed notes in excess of High G. I'd simply just have achieved a better and more reliable High G.


.....
not really sure about this..... Caruso approach can do more you imagine..... in my case it has shifted the position of mouthpiece and changed a little the horn angle.... and changed my chin from flat to bounce....... and these are only the macro variable easy to be detect.... and increased my capacity to recognize notes

your conscious mind can manage not more than 12 muscle in the same time (for well trained people.... less for normal people). Your unconscious mind can manage more than 200.... The feedback of conscious mind is filtered by your "idea of truth".... the feedback of unconscious mind is almost unfiltered... and so on...

At the end.... think to sound, visualization or be sticky with timing.... are only door for unconscious mind.... and are all characteristics of respective successful pedagogy.

Regards
Gennaro
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pepperdean
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Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 555
Location: Johnson City, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee,

In the cases I saw, and for myself, the Caruso system did not only improve the playing ability on the existing embouchure. It gradually shifted the setting to a better embouchure (balance).

Alan
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