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tongue = air velocity?


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screamertrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys,

Hopefully this will be my last post about this subject before I dramatically improve. I was wondering if you guys that were telling everybody to use more air velocity instead of air volume (i.e. Mr. Dyson, Roddy, Pedro, Quad C, etc.) use tongue levels, too? Right now my range is at an E in the staff (greatly reduced from a double c w/mainly chops and barley any air). I know I can increase my range by:
1. Not choking off (which is what I'm trying to learn right now w/ The Science of Breath)
2. Increasing Air Velocity instead putting more emphasis on chops.
I'm just curious on how I can put faster air into the horn.
Thanks for your help,
Trevor
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Quadruple C
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-01 18:52 ]
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screamertrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey David,
Thanks for replying again so fast.
I have said it many times to my friends that my favorite player would have to be Wynton Marsalis. I'm assuming that he's been doing many things as described by Dave Monette (i.e. discovering his prana and using it to his full extent, playing on center, etc.) I'll go after that approach.
You see, I think I'm starting to get a little pushy and I realize I can't rush my progress, as you said, I don't want to mess up the quality. We're having Jazz Band rehearsals in the middle of July and previous to my "new" way of playing, I was the only one who could attempt those lead parts. I'm just afraid that I won't be quite ready for those rehearsals. However, I'm not going to rush it, though, and I'll give my progress quality and maybe hand down those lead parts until I think I'm ready for them.
Thanks for ALL the help, David.
Trevor
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Quadruple C
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-01 18:52 ]
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALL THE ADVICE ON AIR WON'T BE ABLE TO HELP YOU IF YOUR LIPS ARE'NT IN THE MPC IN THE MOST EFFICIENT POSITION FOR YOUR SET UP!!!

..you need to check other things first before you use your air power to blow down walls!

THE most efficient way for YOU to put your lips in a position in the mpc where they can work unhindered by excess mpc pressure at ALL registers must be found, allowing the airstream to make them vibrate in turn creating a playing situation where long phrases are easier due to the fact that the air is being controlled better by various mechanisms. The Glottis of course being the primary valve or point of resistance that the air first encounters.

so check this before you worru about tongue/air projection...

http://www.r-o-d-d-y-t-r-u-m-p-e-t.cc/aperture.html

..the above test is important because, TOO OPEN IS BAD...HOW MUCH OPENNESS FOR YOU IS TOO MUCH?...

TOO CLOSED IS BAD...HOW MUCH CLOSEDNESS FOR YOU IS TOO MUCH?..

Don't get me wrong--I'm not into proving or disproving with this test whether it is advantageous to play with a closed or open setting aperture wise ...but hopefully this will help you determine just how large an aperture you have. When you have learnt about that you need to know how efficient your mechanism for playing is before you add "supercharged air" to it...

Well here is my own personal theory on why some players can't play 'that' high.
It's not that they aren't strong enough in the chops, it's usually they aren't using what they're natural set up is, efficiently enough.

How do you determine whether you are playing efficiently or not? - here are some questions you could ask yourself….

1. Is your tone clear, or are there imperfections (fuzzy etc) playing one long note? (normal stave playing) (''Yes, imperfections'' - then probably your lips are not vibrating / buzzing / making sound efficiently.)

2. Can you play very long phrases (such as 16 bar tunes) in one breath without killing yourself?

>> Running out of air too soon? - you may be too open an aperture or too spread from mpc pressure

>>Can't seem to get the air through without choking yourself? - you are probably too closed an aperture [open your jaws a little 1/4 - 1/2 inch.]


try this...

http://www.r-o-d-d-y-t-r-u-m-p-e-t.cc/effic.html

to get on to the Tongue level part of the question...

The tongue is obviously involved with playing the trumpet. However, a very difficult concept to grasp is whether the tongue, lips and the manipulation of "AIR", can, in fact, be correctly isolated as to the individual roll of what does what, and to what extent, it is always a hotly debated subject.

What goes on in one person's oral cavity cannot be directly transferred 100% to someone else. Although this is where trial, error, SMART practice and not OVER analysis should come into play.

The clarity of your tone, articulation and initial note production are perfect indicators of whether you tongue is working efficiently for you. If you find you have a problem in any of these aforementioned areas then look to your tongue position/usage for a possible answer to a myriad of inter related problems.

The reason people argue over tongue position is because it depends on what method of playing they are using to deliver the air to the instrument. Most methods require their own specific tongue position to allow the rest of the method being learned to work properly as the author intended. You need to find what works for you personally.

IT IS NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE TO MIX AND MATCH DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES FROM DIFFERENT METHOD BOOKS. YOU NEED TO EXPERIMENT, FINDING OUT WHICH PART OF WHICH METHOD WORKS FOR YOUR PHYSIOLOGY.

LET THE SOUND ON THE HORN BE YOUR GUIDE!!

here is my thoughts on MY tonguing...

I personally have found it is most desirable to try and use as low a tongue position ["aaaaa" or "ah"] for as long as possible, in ascending to your high register on the horn, leaving your sound as full as possible until you finally use the "eeeee" as your secret weapon as late in your high register as possible. Some people use it far too soon thereby having a pinchy thin reed like sound even in their middle register.

It is also possible to use "eeee" and cause some damage to the nasal sinuses. Some people have air leakage this way too! Better to keep to "aaaaa" as long as possible!


I also find [in note production] that the tongue position that works well for me is the one where the tongue should be behind the upper teeth at different points on the upper teeth depending as to what register I'm in.

Simply...the higher the register, the higher up the top teeth the tongue is...the lower the register...the lower the tongue position is behind the top teeth. This works for me and a lot of my students, however, I would like to say again that the reason trumpet players cannot agree on where the best position of tonguing is we all have different oral cavities / teeth and jaw structures / air flow considerations and variables and also
to repeat my previous statement, it depends on what method of playing they are using to deliver the air to the instrument.


...now onto AIR projection...

Be relaxed -don't raise your shoulders and / or tense yourself as you take in the air. Make sure also that you play with good posture shoulders down, back straight, elbows out.

A simpler feeling of an open throat is as when you yawn..go on give it a try and think about the throat feeling!..or think H O T air!

Why not try the "breath builder"..it's a sort of ping pong ball in a cylinder affair, designed to let you blow with variable resistance and very effectual in curing that closd throat feeling.

Here's my thoughts on internal compression of the abs. You don't need to use super abs compression in a large part of the trumpet register so when you do kick the abs power in at the start of the high point in YOUR register it can have a dramatic effect on range and power. Don't use ALL your tricks too early on in the game!

INCREASED AIR SPEED:

To play an octave higher our lip vibrations have to double in speed to the starting point of vibration. For our lips to vibrate at double the speed we have to move the air twice as fast. Not the amount or mass though. This is where the blowing the candle trick comes in...or out as may be applicable

Hold a candle out in front of you and blow it out, now move it farther and farther away.
You will need to blow faster air to blow the candle out each time. Not more, but faster.
The airstream becomes more focussed like a laser beam and this should be done by
rolling the tongue slightly forward and raising it, making the oral cavity slightly smaller.

This is how you need to project the air for your higher notes. They are not higher up but farther away from the end of the bell of the horn. When on the horn the slight raising of the tongue should be only used as your concealed secret weapon as you reach the topmost part of your range. The tongue is only a little boost for the air, kind of like a skateboard going at speed on the level but when it hits that ramp - Woweee!!

Remember the air and your projection of it using the abs is still ALL important. Increase that abdominal strength to enable you to blow out candles miles away, blow a wall down or alternatively play a DOUBLE HIGH C.

How do I increase abs strength?

try this...

Stand in front of a mirror, without a shirt on, but be careful cos' if the wife catches you like this you WILL be expected to perform-heheh!

Put your hands high on your sides and take a breath and try to push your hands out as far as you can. Then count slowly as you release your air (1, 2, 3, ...) as soon as you completely out of air, take another huge breath.

Make sure you are watching yourself in the mirror. The first day you may be able to get up to 15 or 16, by the end of the week, your up to 25, 30, 35, 40, some up to 50 and 60.

This is the normal way to breathe and take in air, remember that we don't take in that huge amount of a breath to play the trumpet. You only take enough air in to play a phrase. Repeat this breathing exercise for ten minutes a day.

Phew!...maybe more than you wanted to know...trouble is it's all related so separating out the issues is increasingly difficult. And certain things need to be "in place" before you head down a certain path.

I won't be checking in here on a daily basis for a little while so if anyone needs to check any of the above with me or wants clarification please contact me via email.

RoddyTpt@aol.com

Just tryin' to help... Roddy o-iii<O

http://www.R-o-d-d-y-T-r-u-m-p-e-t.cC




[ This Message was edited by: Roddyo-iii
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_bugleboy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Roddy,

You said,

***** To play an octave higher our lip vibrations have to double in speed to the starting point of vibration. For our lips to vibrate at double the speed we have to move the air twice as fast. *****

This isn't true for me. I can play higher notes without increasing the air speed.

Consider this. If,while bowing an open violin string, the length is cut in half (by applying pressure half way up the finger board) the pitch will go up an octave. The length has been cut in half, but more specifically (since the string is of uniform density) the vibrating mass of the string has been cut in half. Same principle applies to the lips. With the air speed remaining the same, reduce the vibrating lip mass by 1/2 (by applying tension in the facial muscles) and the pitch will go up an octave.

To maintain the same volume level at the higher pitch, the air will have to be blown faster, but the higher pitch can be achieved without increasing the air speed.

Regards,

Charly

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-06-24 12:35 ]
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I agree it can be done that way .....but....

Abs or Face + air pressure, which?

It is possible to play high in many different ways, not all good, what I am talking about here is the efficiency or effectiveness of some methods real or perceived. Controlling and changing pitch is a matter of co-ordinating aperture /size, and or lip/ tension, air speed, internal compression and tongue level/oral cavity.

These variables will be used in differing combinations to differing degrees by players with differing lip tissue. It is up to you to find what best works for you and your set up, it's no good asking somebody else what they do, they have'nt got your physiology. Here is a place to start!

Emphasising one variable more than another requires adjustment to the co-
-ordination of ALL the other variables. Increased air speed will indeed necessitate a degree of greater lip tension for each individual depending on how close their aperture is to start. Increasing lip tension, will in turn, make it necessary to employ greater air speed to a degree. Aperture is NOT just up and down (that has to do with open VS closed),it is also lengthwise (range) and front to back (amplitude or Volume).

However it is the players choice, which, of all the variables is the easiest to make their powerbase for increased range - Abs or Face?

The following works for me, give it a try. To increase pitch, I advocate creating greater air speed by using the abdominal muscles to blow the air out at high speed through a "small soft centered lip aperture." Some people think that by mostly adding facial or lip tension as in stretching a violin string they can get the same results. This creates stiffness of the vibrating surface. If you use primarily lip or facial tension for range you will affect your sound and eventually in playing the extreme high register you will need SO much tension that it get's too tiring and eventually will totally close off ALL lip vibrations resulting in no high notes coming out.

Which is more efficient?

Which has the greater potential for development?

The analogy of adding facial tension or tightening the lips to shortening a violin string, I believe, is ill conceived. When adding facial tension or tightening the lips, a stiffening occurs and you lose the soft center to a degree, which in turn is much harder for the air to pass through and create the vibration needed to produce the required pitch.

Creating a smaller opening/aperture just by closing the aperture right off the bat and passing the air under greater pressure from super internal compression through the soft but now more closed lip set point is the way to go. Basically, it's really easy to make the smallest opening required whilst "upping" the internal compression, [which I don't even start to use to any significant degree until high c] use the abs. and thereby as a consequence create greater air speed.

Bigger pressure of air going through a smaller hole = faster air.

It boils down to a choice....

1. Use your facial muscles/lip tension [small muscles] to pass the air through a small opening, but thereby stiffen the vibrating flesh in the process and in turn make it harder to get the vibration.

2. Keep the lips soft but put them closer together under no extra tension and use bigger muscles [abs/diaphragm] in the body to push the air out faster. These muscles are not used much for a good proportion of the normal trumpet range so it's kind of like overdrive or 5th gear in a car [I use at around high c approximately] if a "close" lip setting is used

Or put another way....

3. Use your face to play and each time you add an octave to your range, build up these muscles, stiffening the vibrating surface of the lips in the process.

4. Use your Abs/diaphragm to play and each time you add an octave to your range, [remember they're not needed until high c so you've already got a head start] build up these muscles, keeping the lips soft allowing faster vibrations.

USE A SMALL SET OF MUSCLES ? [FACE]

USE A BIG SET OF MUSCLES? [ABS/DIAPHRAGM]

I think I'll take the bigger set ...it's possible to go further, easier in MY opinion....

I'm not particulary interested, I have to be honest, in comparing the Trumpet to Violin or any other instruments modus operandi, after all the violin players have the same string properties [thickness/gauge of string] as one another , we ALL have different lip tissue with different 'personal' levels of vibration as a 'personal' starting point. Some people get too wrapped up in analysing a single component of the whole picture and try and use this as evidence as to another person's shortcomings. My offerings above are to set the reader out on his/her personal journey of discovery and to give what I believe to be the best starting point.

There may be some merit in doing these type of comparisons but time spent in trying to prove or disprove theories by people who get excited by too many analagies in THIS manner I believe, is a distraction from OUR instrument.

No offense intended here Charly..you do it your way I'll do it mine and perhaps others will try both and use which ever best suits their natural set up.

Have a better one!

Roddy o-iii<O

[ This Message was edited by: Roddyo-iii<O on 2002-07-08 06:00 ]
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_bugleboy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Roddy,

Hey, thanks for taking the time to respond. In the original post that I replied to, you said,

***** To play an octave higher our lip vibrations have to double in speed to the starting point of vibration. For our lips to vibrate at double the speed we have to move the air twice as fast. *****

and then I posted to that statement. I didn't see where you specifically addressed that issue in your follow up post. However, you did say something that I want to be that I'm clear on so that I understand correctly your position. You said,

***** You see in actuality the vibrating surface [within the mpc rim] stays the same length. *****

Am I correct in reading this to mean that IYO the amount of lip that is vibrating is the same in all registers, just vibrating faster for higher notes and slower for lower notes. So, for example, the amount of lip that is vibrating for a low C is the same amount that is vibrating for a double high C, the only difference being that the air speed has been increased four times (double the speed for the middle C, three times more for the high C and finally four times more for the double C). But, throughout these air speed changes the amount of lip that is vibrating stays the same.

Regards,

Charly
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiya!

I've said it how I've said it and that's how it'll stand. Have you got a range problem that you want me to help you with Charly?..I thought you were happy with all the Caruso way of doing things. Contact me off list if you need help. I'm not into playing semantics - word guessing games anymore on these forums it's a waste of my time.

If you were a person in REAL trouble of course I'd post for you but you don't seeem to be in trouble playing wise with allthe free info you give out. I'm trying to answering the original poster's question like your supposed to have done. You have'nt answered the guy who's posted yet have you?....here's my thoughts further on this type of situation...

Trumpet Online Forums.....

As you probably know there are now quite a few online trumpet forums which are a fantastic resource for information on pedagogy and the like. However I believe it encumbant upon the reader to sift the information for relevant material to their situation and disregard unwanted material with a mind to coming back to it at a later stage perhaps. Remember - don't rubbish a theory it may not be relevant now but it maybe applicable later on and then you'll have to "eat crow" and look foolish.

Many types inhabit these virtual trumpet clinics, mainly of course well meaning. You do have some however who think that being devil's advocate continually is beig clever,
I just find it tiresome. I have NO problem with someone disagreeing with any of my concepts, that is their inalienable right, however you do get some people who wish to pick apart sentence by sentence or even word by word to not gain knowledge for themselves to improve their own playing but mainly to try and discredit your advice so as to make themselves look more and more important. I recently made a suggestion on one forum, the text of which I include here:

=========================

This is the way I would like to think we can all resond to forum posters questions and learn from the various answers also.

POSTER 1 posts his question....
POSTER 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 etc ...all give there separate answers.

if POSTER 3 disagrees with POSTER 7 let them communicate via email...especially if it gets nasty etc.......OR POSTER 3 creates another topic question.
[THE MOST SENSIBLE OPTION]

POSTER 1 then reads all replies and makes up his mind which advice he would like to try and says thanks to everyone!

The above would, I believe, result in more topics being discussed and may remove some of the nastiness. I don't know if what I'm saying now or at any other time is of use to anyone...but there again when your amongst friends it matters not.

Hopefully we will all continue to post what 'we' believe are answers to questions posted, as opposed to pointing out others short comings in the way we percieve their answers to the original question.

The info is there and up to the original poster to use what is applicable at that stage of their development...and disregard the rest [possibly until a later point]. It may help later on. As always, just trying to be helpful. Roddy o-iii<O

=========================

I think quite often we get well intentioned #1 posters with a legitimate query but then when #2 someone posts an answer as they see it, we quite often get #3 poster not really giving ANY relevant advice to #1 but just taking cheap shots at #2.

So, if we could all follow a code something like this we may of course get on 'even better 'than we do now! It shows quite a lack of insecurity with many I believe in this attitude, I suppose they really feel they have to win the argument at ALL costs so that they can feel good about their playing technique and say their teacher knows more than your teacher. It's always best to teach and make up your own mind. Why not just feel good about your playing technique, and move on to something else if it ain't working!
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roddy, I'll add my AMEN to that!


Dave Bacon
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THIS IS TO MR.SCREAMERTRUMPET TREVOR!
==============================

Hopefully in my ramblings above I answered your initial question...it's ALWAYS of the deepest concern to me, and I'm sure many others that the original poster get's a useful answer. I would like if I may make doubly sure this has happened from MY standpoint.
Here are your original questions which I am determined to be clear about...>>>

>>>I was wondering if you guys that were telling everybody to use more air velocity instead of air volume to use tongue levels, too?

......No Trevor, I don't believe in using tongue arch hardly at all, if you have a close enough lip setting it is possible to play an awful long way into the high register without employing much tongue arch at all......if you want syllables think "Toh". I don't know how far up YOUR register this will work, as I said it's because I can't tell from this far how close a lip setting you have. They go hand in hand.


>>> I'm just curious on how I can put faster air into the horn.

...I think I've covered that well above.

Hopefully Trevor this is good enough advice. Please don't take MY word for it, it may not work for you. I personally have played MANY different ways over the 30 years I've been playing and THIS method is BY FAR the easiest for ME...hopefully it'll work for SOME others.

I'm done, I apologise if I've hogged this question. Listen to EVERYONE - TRY everything.

Enjoy the puzzle - Relax - Stay Focussed
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screamertrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Roddy,

First of all, thanks A LOT for caring about asking me if I understood your point. That shows a lot about who you are: a great person.
First of all, I tried your embouchure test in my Arban's while playing along with your recording. With my original embouchure (and a deep breath) I found I could go for eight measures without completely running out of air. With the smaller aperture, I did the whole song in one breath. However, I only got to the fifth measure when I took it up an octave and missed the high c. I haven't tried your efficiency test yet, I will tomorrow, though.
You do make sense with your idea on how to increase air velocity, however, I'm still having trouble tensing up when I go higher. It could be because my aperture is too open, or it could be I'm not creating enough air speed.
Or, it could be something entirely different, like what Quad C was saying where I don't have the balance between energy, air, and tongue quite brought under control.
I guess I'll just have keep practicing until I get it right (which may be a long time...)
Thanks again, Roddy.

Trevor
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_bugleboy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Roddy,

You said,

***Contact me off list if you need help. ****

As you recall, I did contact you off line before you came to TH for some input and you did send me that Don Jacoby exercise which I told you wasn't something that would probably be of much use to me, but that I appreciated your effort. No, I don't think I need a lot of help with range at this time. But I am very open minded. I just like to have a clear understanding of things before I use them.

You say,

***** I'm trying to answering the original poster's question like your supposed to have done.
You have'nt answered the guy who's posted yet have you?.……………..
I recently made a suggestion on one forum, the text of which I include here: *****

You then go on to spell out a kind of protocol under which you think the forum should operate, and which seems to have the full and gleeful support of Quad C.

But since you have corrected me on this post for not answering the original poster, has this change actually been incorporated into the forum?

When I came on the old forum a year ago, I watched what the other posters were doing and determined the procedure that was being used by them. That same SOP carried over into the new forum and seems to be the modus operandi that has the blessing of our webmaster, who I thought was really the one who sets and enforces the rules here. In the past it has never been necessary to restrict posts to the original thread at all. It has always been quite acceptable, up until now anyway, to question statements being made by anyone at anytime regarding trumpet playing. Plus, my posts to you have been either personal opinions/experiences or requests for clarification on your part. Nothing to get upset or angry or accusatory about. Actually, some of the best threads in the past have been ones that diverged greatly from the original topic in a thread.

So I am surprised that this has changed and everyone now is only allowed to post to the original poster in a thread and not to the remarks or statements made by any other posters in that thread.

Regards,
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We/You of course are welcome to post however you like Charly, it's always a pleasure to type/talk with you.

Have a better one!

Roddy o-iii<O
PS is it last poster wins?..go on..it's yours..
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screamertrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Roddy,

I think I'm actually starting to understand your method. It seems to me that it is closely related to Mr. Hunt's.
First of all, Mr Hunt says, "The lips must be 'bunched', compressed, and increasingly 'rolled-in', rather than thinned by pressing the mouthpiece, increasingly into soft flabby lips."
"And where does all this compressed air come from? First, we must learn to breathe fully and in a very relaxed manner. Were I standing next to you, I would be constantly reminding you to take in more air. Now - All Full?" "Squeeze and compress, (a slight 'squat' seems to be helpful) the entire body, ie buttocks, sphinctor, diaphragm, stomach, mouth, lips. Squeeze everything except the throat, which must be opened and relaxed. The whole body is required to expel air, very forcefully, through the tiny, little aperture. Don't be 'wimpish' about this, as it is a failry violent procedure." This seems very similar to what you said.
There are so many ways to incorporate this into how I'm playing now. I mean, maybe my throat is tensing up because the air pressure is unbalanced between my aperture and the air pressure my ab's are "trying" to create.
However, Bobby Shew doesn't like the fact of closing the aperture to increase range.
"The closer you put your lips together, the softer, smaller, thinner, or more "pinched" your sound will be. When you open up the size of the aperture, the first thing you will notice is the freedom of the movement of the air, then the opening up of the sound. "
"Once the aperture is opened, the player must also increase the tension in the ab support to increase the air flow which in turn must fill the larger gap in the aperture opening. This forces the player to USE THEIR AIR which IS the more efficient way to play."

Hmmmm. You can't doubt his playing either.
To me, it just makes sense to do it your way, Roddy. The balloon (player) can't make a high pitched sound unless it's got some tension in it's opening (aperture), right? I think your method and Mr. Hunt's method will be what I'll try to practice.

Trevor
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Emb_Enh
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Joined: 29 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2002 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

However, Bobby Shew doesn't like the fact of closing the aperture to increase range.
=============================

Trevor......

HOW OPEN IS YOUR OPEN?...

HOW CLOSED IS YOUR CLOSED?

HOW OPEN IS MR.SHEW'S COMPARED TO YOURS?....

IS FADDIS' VERSION OF OPEN....REALLY
YOUR CLOSED?

IS MR. SHEW'S VERSION OF OPEN REALLY MORE CLOSED THAN YOUR PRESENT SETTING?

WE DON'T KNOW...YOU'LL NEVER KNOW!

TOO OPEN IS BAD...HOW MUCH OPENNESS FOR YOU IS TOO MUCH?...

TOO CLOSED IS BAD...HOW MUCH CLOSEDNESS FOR YOU IS TOO MUCH?..


* * * TRY YOUR APERTURE ON MY APERTURE TEST THAT YOU CAN KEEP USING TO ASSESS WHERE YOU ARE FOR YOUR OWN DEVELOPMENT!!! * * *

Totally unlike the 10 min efficiency test this one should be done AFTER you've done your own warm up!!

This 'just' might help you find out just how big your aperture really is!

--I'm not into proving or disproving with this test whether it is advantageous to play with a closed or open setting aperture wise ...but hopefully this will help you determine just how large an aperture you have and how efficieint it is or is'nt.
--------------------------------------------------

Am I in agreement with Mr.Hunt?..a lot of the time yes..it's close, although I don't totally agree with HIS method of arrival at some of the end goals. Maybe I should write a book.
-------------------------------------------------
balloons etc....you have to have RESISTANCE somewhere in the system, people do this by many different methods. YOU need to find what's right for your TOTAL picture. You can't always mix and match from different methods sucessfully....experimentation should always be scientific and not emotional..if it works use it..if it ain't broke don't fix it...

However, a very difficult concept to grasp is whether the tongue, lips and the manipulation of "AIR" via whatever chosen method, can, in fact, be correctly isolated as to the individual roll of what does what, and to what extent, the concepts are very closely interelated and co-ordination between these key principles is'nt easy to always understand fully or observe one at a time. It is usually hotly debated unnecessarily.
---------------------------------------------------

I've started to think that I'm getting too verbose in a public forum and want to make sure you and anyone else who reads this is understanding that these concepts have worked well for me...but that is ALL they are, concepts the way "I" see them. They are NO more important than ANYONE elses ideas or beliefs. PLease take on board what ANYONE else says. I am reticent to argue or defend my personal beliefs in a public forum as you've seen before. These beliefs work well for ME! --THEREFORE TO ME, IT MATTERS NOT whether ANYONE else thinks they are correct or even accurate. Even if someone famous told me that I had been doing it ALL wrong, I would'nt take their word for it. You MUST find out for yourself.

Contact me off list if you wish further info on what I've said here. I think I've said all I want to publicly at this time. I share my personal opinions with you with many reservations as to hogging topic space. I am a keen enthusiast is all.

Bobby Shew said..

"THE BEST TEACHER IS YOURSELF"

Enjoy the hunt - relax - the enjoyment is the hunt itself!!!

Roddy o-iii<O
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD


[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]
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Nicholas Dyson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2002 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry Roddy, and don't you go changin'!
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tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<<Hmmmm. You can't doubt his playing either. >>>

Mr. Shew is a wonderful player. But, he falls flat and looses center and focus on lots of his high notes. There is room for improvement everywhere. We have to ask, "where in his technique does he go wrong?" Harry James and Charlie Shavers never loose center and focus. What do they do that is so different? Best regards, Kyle
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Quadruple C
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-01 18:55 ]
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2002 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In request from Charly over the page for clarification on various matters, including debating forum stuff...

Charly....

...I don't know why but I never feel the need to prove/back up/state as fact/ produce evidence -scientific or anecdotal to satisfy someone else. I'm only really trying to learn for ME!

The fact that I've said something in open forum is there for ALL to see. I don't need to produce more words to satisfy anyone---what makes you think YOUR so special Charly that you feel that you can by whatever means [inventing a debating forum] make me produce more words to convince YOU. Maybe it was'nt just me alone of course maybe you have this problem with a number of people...I dunno...AND don't care...'

I'm not that bothered about YOU...you have to sort yourself out...if some of my ramblings help YOU on the way great..if they don't...no neva mind...

If you don't like my theories which I use for MY success...I'm terribly sorry...ignore them.

You may not think I'm very successful by your standards...I don't know and don't care...I did pretty good with being at THE top theatre job in MY country as a resident player...NOT as a sub.

I have nothing to prove to ANYONE about playing apart from myself. That's why I like it...that's why I'm rambling on even now to you cos I enjoy even talking about it...pathetic is'nt it.....If us trumpet players would have been brain surgeons instead we all woulda made a lot more money AND got to play with some really cool gadgets!!! hehehe!!

If your worried that other people take too much notice of me and my words I can't help you there. That is up to them - and ONLY them!

If my ramblings help someone else have an aha situation on the way -great!! --if it does'nt never mind...but it's not MY responsibility to supply more info over and over and over again just to try to make YOUR position, OR YOUR understanding clearer Charly.

You seem to have a problem with air mass / air speed. It's not easy. Especially as in a previous post you say...

"For me, air speed has a lot to do with playing loud high notes, but that the pitch is achieved by the tension in the lips as determined by the muscles in the face. " [CR]

and....

"Air speed functions the same for all players. It is a force that controls dynamics and that it has nothing to do with playing high notes.
I conclude that volume of air and air velocity are the same thing."

AND more to the point ... I think that...

Carmine + you are right...it IS possible to play that way.

...I personlly don't do it that way....

In the spirit of more info sharing I'll try to give you my info in another way cos I like you...I really do...you have a great and keen mind and won't let go of a problem until you've really understood it YOUR way....

....BUT....that way of understanding is'nt mine...NOR should it be anyone elses...

WE ALL HAVE TO MAKE OUR OWN MINDS UP ABOUT PLAYING...THAT'S THE FUN OF IT!!!

HERE'S SOME MORE INFO FOR YOU TO PICK TO DEATH...I DON'T CARE...

Controlling and changing pitch is a matter of co-ordinating aperture/size, and or lip/ tension, air speed, internal compression and tongue level/oral cavity.

These variables will be used in differing combinations to differing degrees by players, with differing lip tissue. It is up to you to find what best works for you and your set up, it's no good asking somebody else what they do, they have'nt got your physiology. Here is a place to start!

Emphasising one variable more than another requires adjustment to the co-
-ordination of ALL the other variables. In some increased air speed will indeed necessitate a degree of greater lip tension depending on how close their aperture is to start. Increasing lip tension, will in turn, make it necessary to employ greater air speed to a degree. Aperture is NOT just up and down (that has to do with open VS closed),
it is also lengthwise (range) and front to back (amplitude or Volume).

However it is the players choice, which, of all the variables is the easiest to make their powerbase for increased range - Abs or Face?

The following works for me, give it a try. It does'nt matter one jot to me whether this can be proven scentifically or otherwise..it works for me...it MAY for you.

To increase pitch, I advocate creating greater air speed by using the abdominal muscles to blow the air out at high speed through a "small soft centered lip aperture." Some people think that by mostly adding facial or lip tension as in stretching a violin string they can get the same results. This creates stiffness of the vibrating surface. If you use primarily lip or facial tension for range you will affect your sound and eventually in playing the extreme high register you will need SO much tension that it get's too tiring and eventually will totally close off ALL lip vibrations resulting in no high notes coming out.

Which is more efficient?

Which has the greater potential for development?

The analogy of adding facial tension or tightening the lips to shortening a violin string, I believe, is ill conceived and does'nt take into account person to person varying lip tissue anyhow. When adding facial tension or tightening the lips, a stiffening occurs and you lose the soft center to a degree, which in turn is much harder for the air to pass through and create the vibration needed to produce the required pitch.

Creating a smaller opening/aperture just by closing the aperture right off the bat and passing the air under greater pressure from super internal compression through the soft but now more closed lip set point is the way to go. Manipulating the aperture by shape oval/round for tonal choice, lengthwise/drawstring for range and front to back for amplitude or volume. Basically, it's really easy to make the smallest opening required whilst "upping" the internal compression, [which I don't even start to use to any significant degree until high c] use the abs. and thereby as a consequence create greater air speed.

If, in tightening the abs as Brisbois said, you get a grip on the air stream [don't take in too much air to play high other wise it's harder to grip.] you can narrow the air column using the big muscles so your air will be going much faster. Some like to think of the squeezing the sides of a balloon.

The following measurements are only for visualisation.

Example:

1 litre of air blown with 15 lbs of pressure through a 2mm2 aperture produces G2

1 litre of air blown with 60lbs of pressure through the same 2mm2 aperture will result in greater air speed and G3.

The above is only an example....don't get excited by the numbers used...

Bigger pressure of air going through a small aperture = faster air.

If science or another theory over time proves me wrong, I can't tell you how much I don't care. For me all this techie speak is totally unreal and even if there was ANY physical point that trumpet players could agree on as being DEFINATELY the way to go, I would still think of it as a visualisation and totally unreal --- IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MUSIC and I don't think about this stuff at all while I'm playing except for a reminder to my self occasionally to keep a hold on a certain aspect if I think my sound is'nt right at any point.

If you get RIGHT INTO the music AFTER you have experimented at home with these techniques enough to satisfy your quest for a better way to play, it becomes a liberating experience to finally forget all the nonsense that used to swim around your head previously and concentrate on having fun with the instrument....it's what we started out for!!!

To summarise It boils down to a choice....

1. Use your facial muscles/lip tension [small muscles] to create tighter and tighter lip tension step by step to pass the air through a small opening, but thereby stiffen the vibrating flesh in the process and in turn make it harder to get the vibration.

2. Keep the lips soft but put them closer together under no extra tension and use bigger muscles [abs/diaphragm] in the body to blow the air out at a faster speed.

These muscles are not used much for a good proportion of the normal trumpet range so it's kind of like overdrive or 5th gear in a car [I use at around high c approximately] if a "close" lip setting is used

Or put another way....

3. Use your face to play and each time you add an octave to your range, build up these muscles, stiffening the vibrating surface of the lips in the process.

4. Use your Abs/diaphragm to play and each time you add an octave to your range, [remember they're not needed until high c so you've already got a head start] build up these muscles, keeping the lips soft allowing faster vibrations.

USE A SMALL SET OF MUSCLES ? [FACE]

USE A BIG SET OF MUSCLES? [ABS/DIAPHRAGM]

I think I'll take the bigger set .......you'll go further, easier....

I'm not particulary interested, I have to be honest, in comparing the Trumpet to Violin or any other instruments modus operandi, after all the violin players have the same string properties [thickness/gauge of string] as one another , we ALL have different lip tissue with different 'personal' levels of vibration as a 'personal' starting point. Some people get too wrapped up in analysing a single component of the whole picture and try and use this as evidence as to a particular theories shortcomings.

There may be some merit in doing these type of comparisons but time spent in trying to prove or disprove theories by people who get excited by too many analagies in THIS manner I believe, is a distraction from OUR instrument.

My offerings above are to set the reader out on his/her personal journey of discovery and to give what I believe to be the best vantage point for air usage. Just one thing though - all the air on planet earth ain't gonna help you play extremely high easily if your chops are not in the right set up FOR YOU!!!!

So Charly ...my only premise here is to show that I'm a keen thinker like many on this forum.

It hopefully will show you and others [Jeff Smiley etc..] that I could have easily ignored you as Jeff suggested [I think]..I felt that I'd given enough info..previously to satisfy most..this is the best way I can describe to you and others how I perceive this small part of the trumpet playing picture and how it relates to MY big picture...

In a previous post you wrote...

"Don Jacoby may be right. His approach may employ air speed to induce higher notes. That's what everyone says. I have no idea how he does it because it is not the approach that I use. When I blow air faster, the note gets louder. But if Mr. Jacoby says that he can get higher notes that way, and others use that approach with success, then I wish them well. It just doesn't happen to be the way that I do it. " [Charly]

...well....wish me well also...I am at the moment playing THE best trumpet of my career...I LOVE IT.....and so you YOU!!

CONGRATULATIONS TO TODD ON A BLOODY FANTASTIC FORUM....ALL THE FORUMS ARE GREAT THOUGH ARE'NT THEY!!!!!

Charly you also have written....

"In my experience a good player takes ten years. Now, a little explanation of the ten years figure. Carmine went on to explain that he looked at it as 5 years to get the physical demands achieved and another 5 years to learn to use them musically. That's what he called a "good player."

...GREAT!!!!! --NOT LONG TO GO NOW THEN FOR ME....... [I've been playing 30 years]

==========================

Charly and Dave Bacon.....

"Q. But I'm not able to see where you have described what you mean when using the terms. Did I miss it? CR

A. What do you need, Charles. I would guess you have your own answers. What are they? I've given mine. What are your answers? It's just one small tool I use as I've described previously. Dave Bacon
=============================

So old pal, I guess that it's not just me that you need to squeeze extra info out of is it? ----go ahead keep asking.....but...when someone does'nt want to give any more info...it is'nt necessarily because they are confused/unsure, scientific/unscientific or indeed wimpey/wimpy [I know one is a burger!]...but that they may be ALL tapped out for a while.

THE BURDEN OF UNDERSTANDING THE ACTUAL CONCEPT OR THE ORIGINATORS PERCEPTION OF THE CONCEPT LIES WITH THE PERSON ASKING THE QUESTION.

AS to whether we have to be scientifically proven or not before we may state an opinion or not I'll leave up to the words of Jeff Smiley.

Jeff said in a previous post....

"All knowledge comes from subjective experience, which is a line straight out of the philosophy of science. It only becomes called "objective" when a lot of people agree. And sometimes those agreements have nothing to do with ultimate reality, as they may be heavily colored by the filters of belief. (but that's another story)." Jeff Smiley

...I just happen to be waiting for other people to agree with me...if they don't...it won't make ANY difference to me / my views / or the way I play.

As I said before....go ahead Charly you obviously really feel the need to have the last word....

....go ahead I promise I won't come back, no matter what/how/who calls me [or anyone else] names in a effort to get EVEN more info out of me.

I'm flattered that anyone should care about my thoughts or the effect they have on ANYONE let alone you.

=============================

I posted the same "Abdominals / Face" post that I did here on TH to TPIN to see what reaction I would get...I must be doin' something right even if here on TH some people are'nt in agreement [that's okay!]

.............

[TPIN] Re: Abs or face - Roddy's post
From: ndrozdoff@hotmail.com (Nicholas Drozdoff)

Roddy has some interesting points.

Personally, I quite agree that facial tension or lip tension is not the way
to think of this. I agree with the idea that "lip aperture" size is more
important when combined with air control. Just stretching the lips tighter
for the high notes will yeild poor results.

He has some different ways of saying things here, but go back and re-read
his post and look for the subtlties.

Keep up the good work, Roddy!

Peace.

ND
http://www.mp3.com/NickDrozdoff

=============================================================================


Re: [TPIN] Abdominals or Face
From: jack@Kanstulmusic.com (Jack R. Kanstul)

This is an excellent post as it helps to explain the two(if you will)
opposing camps in playing a brasswind instrument. Use of more facial
tension(buzzing camp) or use of Ab's(less lip tension and more air). Both
work but yield different results. I know this from personal experience as I
studied from both James Stamp(buzzing camp) and Claude Gordon(Ab camp). This
also does not just relate to range but overall sound.

When I studied with Jimmy he could play up to a double high C with a very
pretty sound. It was not the sound that Maynard or Arturo would produce but
it had warmth to it. But because he was doing it more with the lip his sound
would have been covered over by a big band. Also he would not be able to
last as long up there as either of the above two mentioned players. That's
because as Herbert L. Clarke use to say,"Let the air save the lip." Your lip
muscles are just not as strong as your ab muscles and so will not be able to
last as long. Besides you want to stay relaxed in the lip area so they
vibrate in a way that lets the air produce a fat sound. The sound is in the
air or as again Clarke use to say,"The lip does not play the horn. Let the
air do the work." Arnold Jacobs was saying the same thing in his phrase,"
Song and Wind." Jacobs also made a statement I will never forget at the
Brassfest at Indiana U in 95. In relation to embochure problems he
said,"Embochure is seldom a problem when the air is working properly." That
had always been my problem and the reason my father took me to different
teachers. I had no range. By concentrating on my lips(buzzing) more it only
made matters worse. By the time I went to Claude at 19 I had a cut the size
of the Grand Canyon on the right side of my lip.Claude did not have me
concentrate on the lips but instead had me focus on my sound and the air.
His first routine would go down into the Pedal register(great way to relax
the chops and get the air going). His second routine would go up from the
Pedal register into the middle and upper registers and back down again into
the Pedals. This kept you nice and loose and allowed the air to produce a
big fat sound. The thoughts expressed below also in relation to
co-ordination and each player being different are in line with what Claude
would say in that we play by FEEL and not theory. Everyone has to work that
out for themselves. No one can tell you how to do it. So what one chooses to
focus on is a personal decision. You can do it either way. The debate might
be which is the best way.

Jack Kanstul
Visit our factory showrooms
Now in Phoenix and Portland
480-753-3468/503-288-7278
http://www.kanstulmusic.com
============================================================

Re: TPIN, Abdominals or Face
From: 2theocar@onemain.com (TED CARLSON)


Roddy,
I was really interested in your post regarding the choice of: "Abs or Face."
Up till now, I've been trying to follow all the "Face" techniques which, for me, only work up to a certain point. I think I'm suffering the "lip tension turning off all vibration" situation that you describe.
Your description of "squeezing the balloon" and getting a grip on the air supply makes sense to me. I'm going to work on it.
Thanks,
Ted Carlson
Crossville, TN.
==============================================================

[TPIN] Re: Abs or face
From: rick.rangno@sympatico.ca (Rick Rangno)

Nice post Roddy!
Using the larger muscle group makes the most sense, and has been advocated by so many great (and diverse) teachers and players such as Herbert L. Clarke, Claude Gordon, Doc Reinhardt, Bobby Shew, Bud Brisbois, etc etc. I remember reading a post that James Morrison replied to and he stated that you needed the compressed air - if you ONLY used the facial muscles eventually you had no hole left and then no sound at all, which would explain a lot about that squeely sound so many players get up top. (But not Maynard, right?)
You wrote:
If, in tightening the abs as Brisbois said, you get a grip on the air stream [don't take in too much air to play high other wise
it's harder to grip.]
This confirms Doc Reinhardt maxim which he termed "overbreathing" (Get out your Encyclopedia of the Pivot System folks) You take in the amount of air required for the length of the phrase you are about to play and no extra. He talked about:
Low Notes = High volume of air under low compression, and,
High Notes = Low volume of air under high compression.
Oops, looks like I'm plugging the Pivot System, but not really. This has been said by many, many teachers and players in the past - nothing new here!
Hope all is well in the land of eternal rain and all-male choirs!
Rick

==============================

[ This Message was edited by: Roddyo-iii
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